Hi Gregory, I agree. I don't see a current need for a specific IA2_ROLE_REFNOTE but if AT ask for it later, we could address it then.
Cheers, David On 24/11/10 10:28 AM, Gregory J. Rosmaita wrote: > aloha, david! > > thanks for taking this particular bull by the horns... for what it > is worth, i am in complete accord with IA2_ROLE_COMPLEMENTARY handling > both the role "complementary" and the HTML5 element ASIDE > > one point about IA2_ROLE_NOTE: i believe that it is robust enough to > accommodate both annotative and referential notes -- both function in > the same manner, and exposition or notification of both types of notes > should be handled in an identical manner, leaving it to the the AT, > UA or other app to filter between annotative and referential notes... > > just my recently de-valued 2 U.S. cents, gregory. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > ADVICE, n. The smallest common coin. > -- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Gregory J. Rosmaita, [email protected] > Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- Original Message ----------- > From: David Bolter<[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Cc: [email protected] > Sent: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 09:38:09 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE > >> Hi Pete, >> >> Could we get it done by the end of next week? >> I was chatting with Gregory this morning on the #wai-aria >> channel on the topic of roles. >> >> So, we already have IA2_ROLE_NOTE, which is really for: >> "A section whose content is parenthetic or ancillary to the main >> content of the resource." (aria definition) >> >> We want to add something like IA2_ROLE_COMPLEMENTARY for: >> "Content that is related to the surrounding content within an >> article or web page, but could still stand alone." >> >> So html:aside would map to IA2_ROLE_COMPLEMENTARY given they way >> authors are expected to use it. >> >> How does this sound? >> >> Aside: I'm curious to know if NVDA would just treat >> IA2_ROLE_NOTE and an IA2_ROLE_COMPLEMENTARY the same? >> >> Cheers, >> David >> >> On 23/11/10 10:49 AM, Pete Brunet wrote: >>> We could do a minor release, i.e. from 1.2 to 1.2.1 to add a new role >>> constant for IA2_ROLE_NOTE. >>> >>> The other updates could include: >>> - add a new state, IA2_STATE_PINNED >>> - fix various doc bugs >>> >>> Is there a deadline? >>> -- >>> *Pete Brunet* >>> >>> a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development >>> (512) 238-6967 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell) >>> Skype: pete.brunet >>> IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), [email protected] (MSN) >>> http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/ >>> Ionosphere: WS4G >>> >>> david bolter wrote: >>>> Thanks Gregory, >>>> >>>> It sounds like there are two problems. >>>> >>>> 1. My proposed description of the IA2_ROLE_NOTE. >>>> 2. What desktop role to use for<aside>. >>>> >>>> I'll gladly recind my proposed definition of the ia2 role given the >>>> semantic distinctions you point out. >>>> >>>> What should I do about #2? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> D >>>> >>>> On Nov 22, 2010 2:39 PM, "Gregory J. Rosmaita"<[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>> aloha, david! >>>>> >>>>> i have a BIG problem with the rewording because it warps both the >>>>> semantic meaning of the "note" role in ARIA and the ASIDE element >>>>> in HTML5, which is analagous to ARIA's "complementary" role >>>>> >>>>> ARIA defines "note" as: >>>>> >>>>> QUOTE cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#note"; >>>>> A section whose content is parenthetic or ancillary to the main >>>>> content of the resource >>>>> UNQUOTE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ARIA defines "complementary" as: >>>>> >>>>> QUOTE cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#complementary"; >>>>> A supporting section of the document, designed to be complementary to >>>>> the main content at a similar level in the DOM hierarchy, but remains >>>>> meaningful when separated from the main content. >>>>> >>>>> There are various types of content that would appropriately have this >>>>> role. For example, in the case of a portal, this may include but not >>>>> be limited to show times, current weather, related articles, or stocks >>>>> to watch. The complementary role indicates that contained content is >>>>> relevant to the main content. If the complementary content is >>>>> completely separable main content, it may be appropriate to use a more >>>>> general role. >>>>> >>>>> User agents SHOULD treat elements with the role of complementary as >>>>> navigational landmarks. >>>>> UNQUOTE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> HTML5 defines ASIDE as: >>>>> >>>>> QUOTE >>>> cite="http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/sections.html#the-aside-element"; >>>>> The aside element represents a section of a page that consists of >>>> content >>>>> that is tangentially related to the content around the aside >>>> element, and >>>>> which could be considered separate from that content. Such sections >>>> are >>>>> often represented as sidebars in printed typography. >>>>> >>>>> The element can be used for typographical effects like pull quotes or >>>>> sidebars, for advertising, for groups of nav elements, and for other >>>>> content that is considered separate from the main content of the page. >>>>> >>>>> It's not appropriate to use the aside element just for parentheticals, >>>>> since those are part of the main flow of the document. >>>>> UNQUOTE >>>>> >>>>> re-read that last sentence in the ASIDE definition -- "It's not >>>>> appropriate to use the aside element just for parentheticals, since >>>>> those are part of the main flow of the document." >>>>> >>>>> i believe this CLEARLY illustrates that the ROLE_NOTE is INAPPROPRIATE >>>>> for content which should be contained in an ASIDE or assigned a role >>>>> of "complementary" -- a note, on the other hand, contains information >>>>> that is parenthetical to the string of content with which it is >>>>> associated -- the user should be able to set her AT so that anything >>>>> marked as "note" can either be expanded inline, jumped-to via a >>>>> linking mechanism or ignored altogether, but a "note" is a commentary >>>>> on the text which -- taken in isolation -- is pretty ambiguous compared >>>>> to text marked as "complementary" or witin the ASIDE element -- that >>>>> text, while it supports the "main" text, can be read in isolation >>>>> without reference to the "main" text -- in other words, self-contained >>>>> blocks of structured content which can be read in isolation, in tandem >>>>> with the "main" content, or ignored, per user need >>>>> >>>>> aplogies for SHOUTING about this, but i think this is a critical >>>>> issue if the IA2_ROLE_NOTE is to be implemented correctly to allow >>>>> users to choose exposition options for actual notes (referrential >>>>> or annotative) -- the IA2_ROLE_NOTE should NOT be considered the >>>>> analogue to the HTML5 element ASIDE (whose closest ARIA analogue >>>>> is "complementary") but is an essential part of offering users the >>>>> richest, most customizable means of obtaining all of the information >>>>> contained in the document, gregory. >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>>>> The optimist thinks that this is the best of all >>>>> possible worlds; the pessimist knows it is. >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Gregory J. Rosmaita: [email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>> Vice-Chair& Webmaster, Open Accessibility Workgroup >>>>> http://a11y.org/ http://a11y.org/specs/ >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ---------- Original Message ----------- >>>>> From: David Bolter<[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>> To: Richard Schwerdtfeger<[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>> Cc: [email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>, >>>>> [email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>, >>>>> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>, >>>> "Gregory J. Rosmaita"<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>> Sent: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:31:46 -0500 >>>>> Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks Rich, >>>>>> >>>>>> Is anyone opposed to changing the definition to: "A section that >>>>>> provides complementary information" ? >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> David >>>>>> >>>>>> On 16/11/10 10:32 AM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote: >>>>>>> That is the appropriate role for aside. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Rich Schwerdtfeger >>>>>>> CTO Accessibility Software Group >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Inactive hide details for david bolter ---11/15/2010 05:55:01 >>>>>>> PM---Well, I think I'm looking for approval to expose the html >>>> asdavid >>>>>>> bolter ---11/15/2010 05:55:01 PM---Well, I think I'm looking for >>>>>>> approval to expose the html aside element with an IA2 note role >>>> (in ge >>>>>>> From: david bolter<[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>> To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita"<[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>> Cc: [email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>, >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>, >>>>>>> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>> Date: 11/15/2010 05:55 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE >>>>>>> Sent by: [email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, I think I'm looking for approval to expose the html aside >>>>>>> element with an IA2 note role (in gecko). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It might be problematic to use a brand new role for FF4 since we >>>> are >>>>>>> API frozen. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> D >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2010 4:20 PM, "Gregory J. Rosmaita"<[email protected]_ >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> aloha, brian! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> please refer to my resend of my reply to david: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > _https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2010-November/001235.html_ >>>>>>>> for my complete post -- as for using the brackets, that isn't >>>>>>>> semantically marking the text as relating to/glossing the >>>> quote, but >>>>>>>> not part of the quote -- designating a voice characteristics >>>> change >>>>>>>> for everything in brackets is a rather "gross" tool for this task, >>>>>>>> similar to having a voice chars switch for quotation marks, >>>> which are >>>>>>>> used for a lot more than quotations -- for example, i use CSS >>>> to put >>>>>>>> text in emphasis quotes by assigning the text to be encased in >>>>>>>> air-quotes the element EM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> for more detailed musings (by me and others) on what is lacking in >>>>>>>> HTML5's quote element, consult the HTML WG wiki page: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/MuchAdoAboutQ_ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gregory. >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, >>>>>>>> as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them >>>>>>>> with others. -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_ >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> Gregory J. Rosmaita, [email protected]_ >>>> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>> Camera Obscura: _http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html_ >>>> <http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html_> >>>>>>> <http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html> >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---------- Original Message ----------- >>>>>>>> From: Brian Cragun<[email protected]_ >>>> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> >>>>>>>> To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita"<[email protected]_ >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> >>>>>>>> Cc: [email protected]_ >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>, >>>>>>>> [email protected]_ >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>, David >>>> Bolter >>>>>>>> <[email protected]_<mailto:[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>>, >>>>>>> [email protected]_<mailto:[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 14:05:42 -0600 >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Doesn't the demarcation in the text itself provide that context >>>>>>>>> inherently? Anyone reading the text would assume that the >>>>>>>>> brackets mean there is editor inserted comment. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brian Cragun >>>>>>>>> IBM AbilityLab Consultant >>>>>>>>> Human Ability& Accessibility Center >>>>>>>>> _www.ibm.com/able_<http://www.ibm.com/able_> >>>> <http://www.ibm.com/able>& _w3.ibm.com/able_<http://w3.ibm.com/able_> >>>>>>> <http://w3.ibm.com/able> >>>>>>>>> W:(720)-663-2801 H:(507)288-2437 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: "Gregory J. Rosmaita"<[email protected]_ >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> >>>>>>>>> To: David Bolter<[email protected]_ >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>>, >>>>>>>>> [email protected]_ >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>>> Cc: [email protected]_ >>>> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>>> Date: 11/15/2010 01:48 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE >>>>>>>>> Sent by: [email protected]_ >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>>> aloha, david! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> actually, i'd argue that the problem is that the concept "note" >>>>>>>>> is insufficient for all use cases: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1. there should be a means to distinguish between explanatory >>>> notes >>>>>>>>> and referential notes; >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2. there needs to be a means to convey within semantically >>>> demarcated >>>>>>>>> quoted text, that a string of text added to contextualize the >>>> quote >>>>>>>>> is not part of the original quote, but disambiguation text: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> <q>He [Robert E. Lee] was hamstrung by his [J.E.B. Stuart's] >>>>>>>>> absence from the battlefield for the first two days of fighting, >>>>>>>>> depriving him [Lee] of the up-to-date intelligence the calvary >>>>>>>>> ordinarily provided.</q> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, >>>>>>>>> as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them >>>>>>>>> with others. -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_ >>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> Gregory J. Rosmaita, [email protected]_ >>>> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>>> Camera Obscura: _http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html_ >>>> <http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html_> >>>>>>> <http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html> >>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ---------- Original Message ----------- >>>>>>>>> From: David Bolter<[email protected]_ >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected]_ >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 13:42:40 -0500 >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think this is the current description of the note role: >>>>>>>>>> "An embedded note which is not visible until activated" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I wonder if we could change it to: >>>>>>>>>> "A section that provides complementary information" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This would make it reusable for things like html:aside elements >>>>>>>>>> and aria role="note". Thoughts? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> David >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]_ >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>>>> _https://lists.linux-_<https://lists.linux-/> >>>>>>>>>> _foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_ >>>> <http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_> >>>>>>> <http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2> >>>>>>>>> ------- End of Original Message ------- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >>>>>>>>> [email protected]_ >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>>> _https://lists.linux-_<https://lists.linux-/> >>>>>>>>> _foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_ >>>> <http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_> >>>>>>> <http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2> >>>>>>>> ------- End of Original Message ------- >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2 >>>>> ------- End of Original Message ------- >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2 >>>> >>> -- >>> *Pete Brunet* >>> >>> a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development >>> (512) 238-6967 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell) >>> Skype: pete.brunet >>> IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), [email protected] (MSN) >>> http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/ >>> Ionosphere: WS4G >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2 > ------- End of Original Message ------- > _______________________________________________ Accessibility-ia2 mailing list [email protected] https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2
