John, This is the SAME minmax stuff as in game theory, chess, etc., wherein the "if I do this and they do that and I then do ..." back and forth is evaluated to find the best of the worst case results. Computers (except for Deep Blue) evaluate these one-at-a-time, while our brain probably evaluates these at least dozens at a time, and maybe hundreds at a time.
Perhaps you remember my prior posting about bidirectional processing, that might be VERY well adapted to minmax, e.g. when evaluating a prospective move, an input (to the simulation/evaluation logic) might be "stuck low" and drag down a driving neuron, when the move leads to a bad end. This sort of operation is FAST, which was how even old vacuum tube analog computers managed to compute at useful speeds, e.g. real-time extraction of phonemes from speech. Researchers have measured the depth of analysis of grandmaster chess players, who in the course of an ordinary game have evaluated MILLIONS of potential moves, counter moves, counter counter moves, etc. However, if you ASK the grandmaster what his thought pattern was, he is oblivious to this, and provides a simplistic explanation that only involves dozens of prospective moves that defies logic. I have played in tournaments and won, but still have never managed to master Lasker's Manual of Chess, which attempts to better organize the high level guidance of the invisible low-level process. Again, everything I have seen shows "consciousness" to be a post-hoc emergent property of a process that is VERY different that it appears to be. Think hundreds of threads that can NOT be done one-at-a-time, except maybe in a time sharing sort of way, because some threads may never finish, some might cancel others, etc. Further, there is plenty of biological evidence supporting bidirectional computations, which are incredibly inefficient to simulate on present-day computers (except analog computers). Steve ======================== On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 4:19 PM, John Rose via AGI <[email protected]> wrote: > Yes Steve, most of us here are more than intimately familiar with > multi-threading, multitasking, simultaneity, concurrency, parallelism, > grid…. it’s usually presumed in our discussions. > > > > We do know the theory of how a computer can’t model itself… Don’t get all > Tintneresque on us now. > > > > Although, can’t just one single threaded cellular automaton model the > whole universe? I might be wrong on that J > > > > John > > > > *From:* Jim Bromer via AGI [mailto:[email protected]] > *Sent:* Sunday, January 11, 2015 12:52 PM > *To:* AGI > *Subject:* Re: [agi] How to create an uploader > > > > Steve, > > My computers can run 4 threads at a time. So would make your comment > totally irrelevant? Future processors will run 100 threads simultaneously. > Of course an AGI program has to run different trains of 'thought' but it > doesn't matter if they are run concurrently or if they are interspersed. > The modern operating systems run numerous threads at once even if they > cannot be run all at the same instant. > > > Jim Bromer > > > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Steve Richfield via AGI <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi all, > > I think(?) that you all have it wrong. > > Life is a little like playing chess - every second we have many choices, > and select what to do. Reflecting back on it we see a particular path, akin > to seeing a particular history in a chess game. However, the game or path > in life is an emergent property of a process that is anything but single > thread. > > In our attempts to understand "thinking" we build models of a single > thread process, that couldn't be further from the truth. A computer can't > simulate or even model itself, especially special-purpose computers like > our brains that are NOT well equipped for modeling. > > Your single-thread sense of your own consciousness DOES NOT EXIST except > as flawed models in your own minds. STOP wasting your time trying to > replicate something that can't possibly exist. > > Steve > =================== > > > > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 6:43 AM, justcamel via AGI <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Consciousness is fundamental, the AGI system is made of consciousness and > it will be utilized by it once the AGI represents a sophisticated enough > API between consciousness and physical reality. > > Just like it is with computer games. The game "resides" in your computer. > If the game code gets complex enough then your CPU and memory become able > to generate a meaningful experience for you. You are not present in the > game world ... you interact with it through some kind of API an that API > needs to be complex enough in order for you to be able to do meaningful > things within the virtual reality the game represents. > > You can use virtualization in order to host Ubuntu and you can use > virtualization in order to host some ancient Ti z80 based OS. While you > stay fundamentally the same person the complexity of the hosted OS > determines your options within the virtual environment. A chess computer > does not give consciousness enough room/potential to unfold ... an AGI > system will. > > On 11.01.2015 14:47, John Rose via AGI wrote: > > Consciousness "seems" to provide higher level reasoning/intuitive > syntheses in general intelligence. Humans provide that component of > consciousness now in the creation of AGI. I don’t think an AGI would > auto-create itself without consciousness present even on some alien planet. > > > > ------------------------------------------- > AGI > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10443978-6f4c28ac > Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > > > > -- > > Full employment can be had with the stoke of a pen. Simply institute a six > hour workday. That will easily create enough new jobs to bring back full > employment. > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b5>| Modify > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription > > <http://www.listbox.com> > > > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/248029-82d9122f>| Modify > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription > > <http://www.listbox.com> > > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10443978-6f4c28ac> | > Modify > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> > Your Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> > -- Full employment can be had with the stoke of a pen. Simply institute a six hour workday. That will easily create enough new jobs to bring back full employment. ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
