Well again you are talking about interesting concepts like passive consciousness (or low phi - that's a great expression). But does that actually make sense? Wouldn't passive consciousness be zombie like? You are suggesting that there may be something in between but which has very limited effects. That is cool, but not really demonstrable with current AI concepts is it? How do you show that there is dormant consciousness in an AI application without awaking it? Jim Bromer
On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 7:16 PM, Logan Streondj <[email protected]> wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA256 > > > > On 2017-02-13 05:43 PM, Mike Archbold wrote: >> I agree with Jim Bromer. Partly I guess it depends how Tononi >> defines consciousness. I've studied it very generally, but not in >> detail. Intuitively, he seems to have identified an essential >> component but by no means everything.... Obviously our >> consciousness is saturated in feedback, but just having a feedback >> property does not make a computer conscious. What is a more >> complete definition under IIT? It can't be just feedback... what >> I have seen of IIT looks interesting. >> > > > "it has been pointed out that the brain (and > many other systems) is full of reentrant circuits, many of which do > not seem to contribute to consciousness [51]. IIT offers some > specific insights with respect to these issues. First, the need for > reciprocal interactions within a complex is not merely an empirical > observation, but it has theoretical validity because it is derived > directly from the phenomenological axiom of (strong) integration. > Second, (strong) integration is by no means the only requirement > for consciousness, but must be complemented by information and > exclusion. Third, for IIT it is the potential for interactions among > the parts of a complex that matters and not the actual occurrence > of ‘‘feed-back’’ or ‘‘reentrant’’ signaling, as is usually assumed. As > was discussed above, a complex can be conscious, at least > in principle, even though none of its neurons may be firing, no > feed-back or reentrant loop" IIT3.0 > > > Basically from my limited understanding of IIT3.0 > > Consciousness requires three things Information, Integration and > Exclusion. > > Feedback satisfies integration, as the components have to be > interconnected. > > Information implies that there are past memories which can affect > present actions, or that memories could be acquired to affect future > actions. > > And Exclusion means that the consciousness has defined borders. > > > It would seem that it may be a bit tricky with the program switching > that happens in a modern CPU. Though I'm fairly certain that with > FPGA's it would apply quite smoothly. For instance after some FPGA > circuits have been set up, even if they are not active, they could > still be passively conscious, ready for input. > > It may be similar if you consider things loaded in RAM or cache as > passively conscious and actively conscious when processing in CPU. > Similarly a kernel loaded in GPU would be conscious, though I think > there would be some question as to the quality of consciousness, > whether it might be highly modular, and thus of a low phi. IF however > all the kernels are working together, via local or glboal memory, they > could be considered strongly integrated, and would be a singular > consciousness. > >> On 2/13/17, Steve Richfield <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Your Central Metabolic Control System (CMCS) is clearly both >>> intelligent and independent. It appears to have abilities >>> approximating a PhD Control Systems Engineer, and often works at >>> cross purposes to your conscious intentions to keep you alive >>> and healthy. >>> >>> CMCS malfunctions often look a LOT like demonic possession. >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> On Feb 11, 2017 12:11 PM, "Dr Miles Dyson" >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> When I fall asleep and loose consciousness, the neurons in my >>> brain do not rearrange themselves such that no feedback loops >>> exist. And there are many feedback loops that exist in the >>> brain, but I don't have many consciousnesses, I have but one. For >>> both of those reasons consciousness and neural net feedback loops >>> are not one and the same thing. >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 10:04 AM, Jim Bromer >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> I don't concur, but it is an interesting placement of the >>>> minimum for (machine) 'consciousness'. I did not realize that >>>> 'stateless' 'pure functions' could be called 'feed forward'. >>>> If global effects were sufficient to induce 'consciousness' >>>> then any program with global effects could be called conscious. >>>> Even assuming that you were being more specific than that I >>>> still don't think structures that can carry states between >>>> calls (in the ways that you were thinking) would be sufficient >>>> for conscious behaviors to emerge.. >>>> >>>> Jim Bromer >>>> >>>> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Logan Streondj >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I've been promoting Integrated Information Theory for a >>>>> while but I finally sat down and read the whole thing >>>>> yesterday. >>>>> >>>>> Explicitly it mentions that feed forward neuronets are >>>>> 'zombies' or unconscious while recurrent neuronets are >>>>> conscious due to the feedback loops. >>>>> >>>>> So now I'm wondering which classical programming structures >>>>> are 'zombies' and which are conscious. >>>>> >>>>> It would seem by analogy that stateless or pure functions >>>>> are zombies since they simply feed forward. >>>>> >>>>> Wheras structures that carry state between calls such as >>>>> objects and actors are conscious. >>>>> >>>>> Do you concur? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail and >>>>> OpenKeychain. my fingerprint is bd7e 6e2a e625 6d47 f7ed 30ec >>>>> 86d8 fc7c fad7 2729 *AGI* | Archives >>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b5> >>>>> >>>>> > | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your >>>>> Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> >>>>> >>>> >>>> *AGI* | Archives >>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/26973278-698fd9ee> >>>> >>>> > | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>> >>> >>> *AGI* | Archives >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10443978-6f4c28ac> >>> >>> > | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: >>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: >>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11943661-d9279dae >>> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/5037279-a88c7a6d >> Modify Your Subscription: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > eb0005 >> >> >> > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> > > - -- > Logan Streondj, > A dream of Gaia's future. > website: http://joyfullifestyle.ca > twitter: https://twitter.com/streondj > > You can use encrypted email with me, > how to: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/ > key fingerprint: > BD7E 6E2A E625 6D47 F7ED 30EC 86D8 FC7C FAD7 2729 > , > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2 > > iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJYokxPAAoJEIbY/Hz61ycpZqQQAIq0NI/USXXOfFlP3YdH7OcY > L4yKJfYfL8ZYI1fa+jiRr4qEIq+JpGlMZKdBNPGM4FY2bzIqwjGF7IkgfInJec+9 > 7LYupLAi4YNSrGUMEIPlyYmf4d61imMK1aE4qJs7X0QmFPlDRt8q4OVT7meXAnZ6 > 2RvJOv1qWynWVgi/wyGuK0ZFQwhVdHZVkdExj/FribaC7S+XqUcuK7Lk6Rl5VDC8 > THpjW+BRA0WNpGye0nGw5JtBDMvbRrSb6dqeY283HNpsTCuRD5CVp28vNMzqoaYl > JaNstU1+MDj63onG9PL73YXxla5eTB6KeuZx08QtQltHkfKMt/MBmqQf4vU66+8g > MbH+VUoRYYPg4eh4dtdTcsWVcRyuexvGkL8KYmPQHaOph3bQGQVIAqlKI3hSt5pt > dgZWdFDEiY4vDr3ptOejJoKpFqaDfRELj+yagJndolrixdSze57ufOaOeTTledXy > 0VJUatQOSNdeh/plzT7F+0e11IUlLVTim1WypQ8udz8rxh5Di5P5cDke/dU/6cYW > 0bj9pFrxLbRTZVJR43gW9/ZhqrNNZ5dhd8jDBJ0Id9OWpb1UhdNYHdtmo6zIsS3G > ywI/naD0Ss7Q/lD7GHgpwVXiBpnWJRzy1a0r5wKSwQYW9mHMWU7iusoC2NAXKi0W > ZPcUa8ZozRVNB/FLxHmJ > =BADU > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > ------------------------------------------- > AGI > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b5 > Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
