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On 2017-02-14 04:10 PM, Jim Bromer wrote: > Well again you are talking about interesting concepts like passive > consciousness (or low phi - that's a great expression). Actually passive consciousness can be high phi, the phi level is determined by integration, information and exclusion, not by activity. > But does that actually make sense? Wouldn't passive consciousness > be zombie like? It would be more like alpha meditation, passive awareness. Ready to spring into action. > You are suggesting that there may be something in between but > which has very limited effects. I'm not sure what you are referring to. > That is cool, but not really demonstrable with current AI concepts > is it? How do you show that there is dormant consciousness in an AI > application without awaking it? well if a program has high phi can be determined by it's structure and connections. So if you have access to that information, can be done in an offline setting. It's dormancy status doesn't change it's phi level. For example it could be waiting for an interrupt or a packet to process. Or if it is a process loaded into RAM that is sharing CPU resources, but is not currently scheduled -- from it's perspective nothing is happening, unless it is being processed by the CPU. > Jim Bromer > > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 7:16 PM, Logan Streondj > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On 2017-02-13 05:43 PM, Mike Archbold wrote: >>>> I agree with Jim Bromer. Partly I guess it depends how >>>> Tononi defines consciousness. I've studied it very >>>> generally, but not in detail. Intuitively, he seems to have >>>> identified an essential component but by no means >>>> everything.... Obviously our consciousness is saturated in >>>> feedback, but just having a feedback property does not make a >>>> computer conscious. What is a more complete definition under >>>> IIT? It can't be just feedback... what I have seen of IIT >>>> looks interesting. >>>> > > > "it has been pointed out that the brain (and many other systems) is > full of reentrant circuits, many of which do not seem to contribute > to consciousness [51]. IIT offers some specific insights with > respect to these issues. First, the need for reciprocal > interactions within a complex is not merely an empirical > observation, but it has theoretical validity because it is derived > directly from the phenomenological axiom of (strong) integration. > Second, (strong) integration is by no means the only requirement > for consciousness, but must be complemented by information and > exclusion. Third, for IIT it is the potential for interactions > among the parts of a complex that matters and not the actual > occurrence of ‘‘feed-back’’ or ‘‘reentrant’’ signaling, as is > usually assumed. As was discussed above, a complex can be > conscious, at least in principle, even though none of its neurons > may be firing, no feed-back or reentrant loop" IIT3.0 > > > Basically from my limited understanding of IIT3.0 > > Consciousness requires three things Information, Integration and > Exclusion. > > Feedback satisfies integration, as the components have to be > interconnected. > > Information implies that there are past memories which can affect > present actions, or that memories could be acquired to affect > future actions. > > And Exclusion means that the consciousness has defined borders. > > > It would seem that it may be a bit tricky with the program > switching that happens in a modern CPU. Though I'm fairly certain > that with FPGA's it would apply quite smoothly. For instance after > some FPGA circuits have been set up, even if they are not active, > they could still be passively conscious, ready for input. > > It may be similar if you consider things loaded in RAM or cache as > passively conscious and actively conscious when processing in CPU. > Similarly a kernel loaded in GPU would be conscious, though I > think there would be some question as to the quality of > consciousness, whether it might be highly modular, and thus of a > low phi. IF however all the kernels are working together, via local > or glboal memory, they could be considered strongly integrated, and > would be a singular consciousness. > >>>> On 2/13/17, Steve Richfield <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Your Central Metabolic Control System (CMCS) is clearly >>>>> both intelligent and independent. It appears to have >>>>> abilities approximating a PhD Control Systems Engineer, and >>>>> often works at cross purposes to your conscious intentions >>>>> to keep you alive and healthy. >>>>> >>>>> CMCS malfunctions often look a LOT like demonic >>>>> possession. >>>>> >>>>> Steve >>>>> >>>>> On Feb 11, 2017 12:11 PM, "Dr Miles Dyson" >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> When I fall asleep and loose consciousness, the neurons in >>>>> my brain do not rearrange themselves such that no feedback >>>>> loops exist. And there are many feedback loops that exist >>>>> in the brain, but I don't have many consciousnesses, I have >>>>> but one. For both of those reasons consciousness and neural >>>>> net feedback loops are not one and the same thing. >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 10:04 AM, Jim Bromer >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I don't concur, but it is an interesting placement of >>>>>> the minimum for (machine) 'consciousness'. I did not >>>>>> realize that 'stateless' 'pure functions' could be called >>>>>> 'feed forward'. If global effects were sufficient to >>>>>> induce 'consciousness' then any program with global >>>>>> effects could be called conscious. Even assuming that you >>>>>> were being more specific than that I still don't think >>>>>> structures that can carry states between calls (in the >>>>>> ways that you were thinking) would be sufficient for >>>>>> conscious behaviors to emerge.. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jim Bromer >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Logan Streondj >>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I've been promoting Integrated Information Theory for >>>>>>> a while but I finally sat down and read the whole >>>>>>> thing yesterday. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Explicitly it mentions that feed forward neuronets are >>>>>>> 'zombies' or unconscious while recurrent neuronets are >>>>>>> conscious due to the feedback loops. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So now I'm wondering which classical programming >>>>>>> structures are 'zombies' and which are conscious. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It would seem by analogy that stateless or pure >>>>>>> functions are zombies since they simply feed forward. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wheras structures that carry state between calls such >>>>>>> as objects and actors are conscious. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do you concur? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail and >>>>>>> OpenKeychain. my fingerprint is bd7e 6e2a e625 6d47 >>>>>>> f7ed 30ec 86d8 fc7c fad7 2729 *AGI* | Archives >>>>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b 5> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your >>>>>>> Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *AGI* | Archives >>>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/26973278-698fd9ee > >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *AGI* | Archives >>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10443978-6f4c28ac> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: >>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: >>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11943661-d9279dae >>>>> >>>>> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: >>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: >>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/5037279-a88c7a6d >>>> >>>> Modify Your Subscription: >>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > eb0005 >>>> >>>> >>>> > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>> > >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b5 >> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > > ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/5037279-a88c7a6d > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; eb0005 > > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > - -- Logan Streondj, A dream of Gaia's future. twitter: https://twitter.com/streondj You can use encrypted email with me, how to: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/ key fingerprint: BD7E 6E2A E625 6D47 F7ED 30EC 86D8 FC7C FAD7 2729 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJYpyYXAAoJEIbY/Hz61ycpybQP/0TIz0A3GdVUeaB8JGkE71Dt ssClw3hziJl8ZwXejoaxH+9rZN1NnivTyENv02dTPKqiTuLr17WYkVT7d+ilgcJl sliPWEhGLWzOMptoJ9CH1RI7AxR1/zeqVLHHLgfu799GfUbDUTmVRKjFRjjIbnBy RyK3T6tZVyt6zomokRcPcY+g/sMIqsc0bYnO+F2W6wSlHqZAw5c60hWcMHFG9TbG HBIUrPBLS5Tk4FiD+u1vxujEwc/8uFX/WNkzjF4rnVhtETMSewksIF225Wh0im2l Dt9VYOestnsjxLyv/Q62zcxiBC1GvFjNHWsnrTtlyzKd01U9/4ly2Ey4JHaU1dFJ XbmgMGlEQcgR9JOq6NV/+prxU/Ihnxc4u75XcoDbwQkVz/Y0hw+6EoGpkpOV+V1T 4h5hvjyCNMTNvQee3AZEhoPjAiMDTjMJqvFi5xHzDtip90ZDfQtSlas12bQWr5hZ nd+OPCOJ2WiuFASZe3Xo4fj2a35yFGeQ1dTgThFDepaRRIW0ch1q342J3M4ecDKq SpsfawAL5fW7TsP4GhfU1+dWViQEt0d2VDOOYSIrU5gurtl8qRY1vd66JWXCu1or Rs6ko9cM2yll0tKYO5RyqDBLwnnSKrdXoVGpP6y0T8bSWVqJ6fqZO6AufMNJuEU3 TIUSluT0Tjh/imwXca16 =/ZC7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
