Ben, 

Every few months? That may be more that I can stand… $700 is sounding expensive 
at that rate.

I wonder how much time and money do you think Expobar owners are spending on 
annual maintenance?  

Cheers, 

Peter

> On May 1, 2023, at 5:02 PM, 'Ben McCafferty' via Brewtus 
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> A bunch of great advice here. 
> 
> Plumbed/vs water jug. Soooooo nice to have it plumbed. Even nicer to have the 
> drain plumbed. Having done both with my current machine, I’d never go back.
> 
> Pitcher’s advice re: bigger heating element is good; you can also adjust the 
> pressure stat to set the steam boiler to its max, around 1.45 bar if memory 
> serves. This made a world of difference for me vs. stock settings. 
> 
> As to the multiple failed p-stats per year (that is quite exceptional Adam!), 
> I don’t recall the brand but we used to discuss switching to a non-stock 
> model that was available at Chris’ Coffee and maybe Espresso Parts. It was 
> great (Jaeger maybe?). Search my old posts and you’ll find it.
> 
> Heat time—half hour is about right, to really get the group head up to temp 
> (which is the strength of this machine’s design, as is the case with all 
> E61’s).
> 
> Price—$700 max sounds reasonable. You could always mention this group and the 
> consensus here? By about 10 years of age, I was working on my machine every 
> few months, and after about 2 more years of that, went with the ECM instead. 
> Holy crap have they gotten expensive though! The ECM likes to eat vacuum 
> breakers, and also they have a silicon tube that goes from the vacuum breaker 
> to the drip tray (a nice touch, keeps the steam condensation out of the 
> housing). That tubing rots regularly also. I’ve done one element, very easy 
> replacement method.
> 
> By the by, I mentioned using teflon tape instead of the liquid sealant. 
> Another plus there—you’ll get to know the joy of removing a heating element 
> from a Brewtus if it’s glued in with the factory sealant—definitely need a 
> friend with an impact hammer and a way to clamp the boiler in a vise without 
> bending it. With teflon tape, the remove/replace is worlds easier.
> 
> Rotary and PID were great (I upgraded to both on my B2)—the vibe pump was a 
> regular replacement item also; the rotary never needed work other than 
> setting the pressure when I installed it.
> 
> Backflush weekly with cafiza—and let it soak in there for an hour under 
> pressure if you can! It will keep your shots really nice.
> 
> Best of luck, keep us posted!
> b
> 
>> On May 1, 2023, at 13:56, peter riess <[email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>> 
>> Sounds like my old hot tub… Thanks to it, I could probably have a part time 
>> tub repair job! 
>> 
>> Anyway, thanks again. I’ll see if I can get it to a dollar point where it 
>> feels like a fun hobby, not a money pit. 
>> 
>>> On May 1, 2023, at 2:43 PM, Adam Meade <[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> When I got my IV-Rotary, I stuck the hose in a jug of water for a few 
>>> months until I was able to plumb it in.  No issues there.  When I did plumb 
>>> it, my water pressure was too high causing a leak in the machine so I had 
>>> to add a pressure regulator upstream from it.
>>> 
>>> I'll echo what others have said... you'd best be handy to own this machine. 
>>>  In the 6 or so years I have owned it, I've replaced several parts 
>>> including a control board, a heating element, a sensor, and for whatever 
>>> reason I am averaging going through about two pressurestat per year (I buy 
>>> them in bulk now). If you enjoy learning about these machines and don't 
>>> mind working on them, then go for it, but if you don't, then steer clear.   
>>> On the upside, this group is extremely helpful as has been Whole Latte Love 
>>> tech support.
>>> 
>>> For heat up time, mine is about 8-10 minutes for the steam boiler followed 
>>> by about 10 for the brew boiler.  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, May 1, 2023 at 4:32 PM Jason Scott <[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>> Hmmm, others will have to chime in on whether or not you can just stick a 
>>>> hose into a water vessel. I tend to think that the rotary pump needs a 
>>>> minimum water pressure to function, but I could be wrong there. 
>>>> 35 minutes is more than enough time to heat up. 
>>>> 
>>>> On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 3:19:34 PM UTC-5 peter riess wrote:
>>>>> The Brewtus Crew is awesome, thanks all. Good to hear this as well. I’m 
>>>>> currently using a GCP so this would be a big upgrade. Maybe a huge time 
>>>>> suck as well.. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Is 35min accurate for heat up time? 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Any thoughts on plumbing vs dropping the tube into a big ol jug of good 
>>>>> H2O. Plumbing would entail splitting my the icemachine line and figuring 
>>>>> out an inline filter and some holes in counters, walls, etc. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On May 1, 2023, at 2:09 PM, Jason Scott <[email protected] <>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> They're no longer made, but the parts are all pretty universal (heating 
>>>>>> elements, steam/water controls, pstat, etc.) I think I'd be right there 
>>>>>> with you on the price. I would LIKELY pass on a leaking machine at $950, 
>>>>>> but would likely jump on it at $600-$700. The plumbed rotary IV version 
>>>>>> is quite a nice machine. My biggest gripe (which is a common one) is the 
>>>>>> lack of steam power, but there are ways to improve that with different 
>>>>>> tips/wands. I chose a higher-wattage steam element, and if the elements 
>>>>>> are due for replacement anyway, this is an option (but not a trivial 
>>>>>> option, as it does involve replacing wiring that's not intended for 
>>>>>> higher current). 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 2:51:19 PM UTC-5 peter riess wrote:
>>>>>>> Thanks for that beta! Good info to take into consideration. The ask is 
>>>>>>> $950 but, assuming the worst, I wouldn’t want to pay much more than 
>>>>>>> $600-700. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> She also has some back up bits and parts, prepared for the end of the 
>>>>>>> line for the brand. I gather these are no longer made and parts are 
>>>>>>> harder to find than for an old Quick Mill, for example??
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On May 1, 2023, at 1:32 PM, 'Ben McCafferty' via Brewtus 
>>>>>>>> <[email protected] <>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hey there Peter,
>>>>>>>> I think you have some unknowns here, and the bottom line is: what 
>>>>>>>> discount are you getting, how willing are you to replace/repair parts, 
>>>>>>>> and as Pitcher said how handy are you?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I owned a B2 from new for 12 years or so (still have it, no longer in 
>>>>>>>> service), and now have an ECM (another E61 machine, very similar). At 
>>>>>>>> 8 years, you are definitely into the phase where you will be replacing 
>>>>>>>> things and I feel that’s to be expected. As to the lack of descaling, 
>>>>>>>> that may or may not be an issue—where I live, I rarely descaled my 
>>>>>>>> brewtus and didn’t have any buildup to mention. Definitely not the 
>>>>>>>> case in all areas. As an aside, I’ve been using the BWT system (WLL 
>>>>>>>> carries it) for maybe 6 years now and it is money well spent. No more 
>>>>>>>> descaling is their claim, it’s been true for me (I live in a different 
>>>>>>>> area now than I did with the B2 that didn’t scale, harder water here).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If it were me, I’d consider the following parts likely to need 
>>>>>>>> replacing relatively soon:
>>>>>>>> —both boiler elements
>>>>>>>> —overheat sensors on top of both boilers
>>>>>>>> —pressurestat
>>>>>>>> —vibe pump if it’s a vibe machine and possibly solenoid/plunger
>>>>>>>> —miscellaneous copper and silicon tubing, esp the copper tubing to the 
>>>>>>>> hot water boiler which is prone to clogging shut
>>>>>>>> —seals for the E61 group
>>>>>>>> —vacuum breaker for the steam boiler (this can be repaired with a 
>>>>>>>> simple o-ring, instead of buying the whole part from a vendor—I have a 
>>>>>>>> bag of 100 high temp/food grade and happy to send you one or more).
>>>>>>>> —E61 portafilter gasket and screen
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Less likely but possible:
>>>>>>>> —PID
>>>>>>>> —Giemme control box
>>>>>>>> —over pressure relief valve on the steam boiler
>>>>>>>> —seals for the wands
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So if you add those up, and they are less than the discount you’re 
>>>>>>>> getting on the machine vs. new (and you like to work on machines), I’d 
>>>>>>>> say go for it! In any case, you will know the machine well, and since 
>>>>>>>> you’ll be doing future maintenance on any machine, it’s good knowledge 
>>>>>>>> to have. Meanwhile, I’d just get the machine and use it, fix the leak, 
>>>>>>>> and then be pleasantly surprised (and money ahead) for the time that 
>>>>>>>> you don’t need to do the things I mentioned above.  ;)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As to Pitcher’s comment about his machine leaking since new, that is 
>>>>>>>> not normal in my experience. I can’t recall a leak in mine ever, 
>>>>>>>> unless a line blew or something like that. You should be able to chase 
>>>>>>>> that down and fix it, I hope you can too Pitcher! Water under the 
>>>>>>>> machine is one of those things that drains my energy fast—just annoys 
>>>>>>>> the crap out of me I guess!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> One tip/suggestion—Expobar uses a liquid sealant on threads. It works 
>>>>>>>> great, but it sets up FAST. You have to be really quick to get things 
>>>>>>>> aligned, etc., especially on the pump assembly. I have always used 
>>>>>>>> yellow teflon tape instead (you could add teflon paste over the tape 
>>>>>>>> if you wish) and have never had a leak that I can recall. Just might 
>>>>>>>> save you a little headache/heartburn.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Best and good luck with the decision and/or new machine!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> b
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On May 1, 2023, at 12:08, peter riess <[email protected] <>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the reply. From her description the dripping is coming 
>>>>>>>>> from a spot under one of the boilers. I assume it was build for the 
>>>>>>>>> states. My biggest concern I guess is the maintenance over the last 8 
>>>>>>>>> yrs...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On May 1, 2023, at 12:58 PM, Pitcher Pitcher <[email protected] 
>>>>>>>>>> <>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I do not think the dripping is a sign of something major. Mine is 15 
>>>>>>>>>> years old and it drips since I have owned it. I would have to see 
>>>>>>>>>> where it is dripping from to give you a better idea. There are some 
>>>>>>>>>> things to consider if you are going to purchase. How handy are you? 
>>>>>>>>>> Some things I would recommend doing to your machine to make it more 
>>>>>>>>>> hardy. Is the machine for the States or Overseas? The machine was 
>>>>>>>>>> built for 220 v 10 amps. The States where I live are 120 v 20 amps. 
>>>>>>>>>> The extra amps over time has caused some problems.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 1, 2023 at 10:46 AM peter riess <[email protected] <>> 
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Seller claims she bought it new from WLL. Works well bur apparently 
>>>>>>>>>>> it drips a small amount of discolored water as it warms up. 
>>>>>>>>>>> Collects on counter under machine. She's never descaled it for the 
>>>>>>>>>>> 8+/- yrs she's owned it. I am not sure about her water quality but 
>>>>>>>>>>> she has it on a filter. 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Does the dripping raise a hairy red flag??
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for any feedback!
>>>>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> "Pitcher"
>>>>>>>>>> Stephen Pitcher
>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] <>
>>>>>>>>>> 225-408-9041 <tel:(225)%20408-9041>
>>>>>>>>>> 
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