--- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jan Coffey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 3:40 PM
> Subject: Re: Most Dangerous States
>
>
> >
> > --- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > One can kill someone in a split second of rage
> > with the other, the former takes at least a bit of obvious effort.
> >
> > I have never understood this. Many males have been in that "Rage" state,
> > especialy dufing puberty. If you haven't, I can tell you it's rather
> scarry.
> > The destructive urge is so greate that it must be released in some way.
> >
> > However, ones logical thinking abilities are not effected.
>
> Could you please give a cite on this? It contradicts much of what has bee
Site: I have been in that state and never once did I do anything I would not
have done anyway. I had full control, full knowledge, full awarness.
What I ~did~ do was yell really loud, go outside and throw a glass bottle
into a dumpster where it would break, but no cleanup would be neccisary.
Did I consider violence? No more or less than at other times. And I made the
same decision. -Not to harm others-.
The fact that those who want to commit hanus acts build themselves into a
range before they do it, does not mean that the rage caused it.
> >You may become hyper angry, but sugesting that you also loose your
> cognative abilities to
> > diferintiate right from wrong seems to me to be rediculous.
>
> People are still responsible for what they do. But, it is a fact of human
> behavior that some of the worst actions taken by people are taken on
> impulse...they are not planned. They cognative abilities aren't lost, but
> they are often surpressed.
>
>
> > Just becouse someone enters a rage state, does not mean that they do not
> > understand that picking up a firearm and using it is going to result in
> > anothers death.
>
> There can be a very surrealistic component to actions taken on impulse.
> One of the factors involved with a gun is that is is much more surrealistic
> than stabbing someone with a knife.
hmm? I would have to disagree. And as far as rage being surrealistic. I am
not sure what you mean. Have you ever been inraged? Was it surrealistic for
you?
> > If the person has the where withal not to use the firearm in a non rage
> > state, then the same is true for the rage state. Just becouse some people
> who
> > have made the dicision to commit murder and decided to do it with a gun
> > afterwards blame it on "rage" does not mean that anyone could slip into a
> > state of rage and do something they would not otherwise do.
>
> Out of curiosity, before I go to the effort of looking up data, I'd like to
> ask if they would make any difference to you at all. From earlier
> discussions, it appears that you do not trust facts that contradict your
> viewpoint, particuarly if they are expressed in statistical terms.
That is not true. If you can show a clear test and control, if you have
narrowed any other ~reasonable~ posabilities or variables out of
consideration, then statistics are very usefull. On the other hand, if you
simply show statistics without a clear cause and effect relationship then I
refuse to accept that the statistics are important when they disagree with my
logical assesment, or personal experience.
For instance the only statistics on gun control that have been posted which I
feel even come close to being meanigfull are the ones showing that murders in
Texas dropped after CC was introduced. Comparing Texas to NY does not narrow
the scope enough to reasonably remove other variables. Still, even this
statistic is less than desirable as it does not show a corolation. While I do
feel more confident using this stat to suggest that CC reduces murder, I do
not know what other laws were passed, what other events took place, during
this time which might make the muder rate be lower. In fact there does not
even need to be another factor at all. The murder rates fluctuation during
this time may not be at all remarkable.
> >
> > This -fear of rage- argument for not keeping a gun about is BS.
>
> Really, then why did one of my Girl Scout Junior troop members from a few
> years ago, get shot in the head at a graduation party by someone with a
> concealed weapon? There would be no reason in the world for him to plan to
> shoot her, he really wasn't angry at her to begin with. He didn't plan to
> shoot her between the eyes, it just sorta happened.
>
> Calling things you disagree with BS doesn't make it so.
True, and I am sorry one of your troop members was killed in such a way. or
at all. I know it is easyer for people to say that humans are not really bad
people, that they have mental problems or temporary mental problems and that
they do unexpected violent things.
But I look at it differntly, and I apologize if it brings you pain for me to
say so. But this person choose to do what he did, the anger or rage did not
contribute to his actions. Some people ~are~ evil. This idea that males (or
even females) who are capable of rage or who express anger might do something
which they would not normaly do is bigoted and rediculous.
If the expression of emotion has a "volume" some cultures have a higher
volume than others. Some individuals have a higher volume within their
culture. The expression of emotion and violent, -evil- acts are not related.
I will not accept that anger is evil. There were plenty of ways for that man
to choose to express his anger. But he didn't. Instead he did what he
intended to do, what he knew he was going to do at some point, what he
~wanted~ to do.
Think about it the next time -you- are angry. Think about what you do when
you are angry that you might not do otherwise. Think about whether or not you
mean those things anyway, and whether or not you would do something evil.
I know that you would not. But this guy would. The anger didn't make a
difference. He could have done the same thing calmly, if he didn't want to go
on fooling himslef that he was not an evil person. And most people will buy
into that, and even create the atmosphere, make the assumption, keep the lie
alive so that they don't have to deal with the real evil they see in others,
and more importantly the evil they see in themselves.
=====
_________________________________________________
Jan William Coffey
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