Inline too. > -----Original Message----- > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 4:56 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: How long? > > > My own response inline as well. > > -- > Larry C. Lyons > ColdFusion/Web Developer > EBStor.com > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > tel: (703) 393-7930 > fax: (703) 393-2659 > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > http://www.pacel.com > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > -- > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Gary P. McNeel, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 5:08 PM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: RE: How long? > > > > > > If this makes you feel better, fine. More inline. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 3:01 PM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: How long? > > > > > > > > > the Northern Alliance has been as bad. Amnesty > > International has also > > > detailed some of the stuff they've done. But the difference > > has been the > > > Northern Alliance has not engaged in ethnic cleansing as the Taliban > > > according to Amnesty. Also there has been no reports by > > Amnesty of any NA > > > massacres. In these cases Amnesty International, Medecins > > Sans Frontieres > > > and Human Rights Watch have been the only real credible sources > > > in the area. > > > > What did these people do for years prior to becoming the NA? > > These people > > have killed each other for years. Our moral ground it weak. > > Not really, this is defense not offense. The various groups that > make up the > NA have been mujahaddeen since before the 1980's. Some were fighting for > ethnic rights (the Hazaris, Uzbek and Tajeek groups) while others were > anti-communist or regionalist (such as the late Masood).
The various alliance groups and others in the country have fought amongst themselves for years, for whatever reason. There is no telling how many people have suffered and died. > > > > > However all 3 groups have faulted the NA mainly for mistreatment of > > > prisoners and dissidents. They have not engaged in torture, > > > crucifixion, or > > > the horrific punishment they hand out to women (also very well > > > documented - > > > see http://www.rawa.org). > > > > Been there, watched the vids. What, one woman getting > > executed? We do that > > here. Hell, George Jr. killed more people in Texas while in > > office than I > > saw on those films. How do you know these people were not > > killed for real > > crimes? Baby killers or serial murders. You have no proof either way. > > One woman getting executed, how about the hundreds in the same province as > where the Taliban destroyed those statues, Bagram province? Or > the thousands > when the Taliban took over Mazar-al-sharif, Dar-i-sur and Talidan? Amnesty > International has amply documented the torture and executions of > women, men > who were not islamic enough for the Taliban and prisoners of war. These > people are nasty to say the least. I did not say they are morally in the right, nor did I say they have not killed thousands or treat women terribly. Remember, I am the feminist liberal here. I am saying that one video on a Rawa site is not grounds for making a statement that they kill thousands or that we do not know whether she actually committed and crime punishable by death. Frankly, I do not know the exact numbers, maybe no one does. Does this type of abuse of people surprise me? No. Do I think we have a right to do something about it? No. Did we, as a country, do a thing before 9/11? Not a damn thing, hardly in the news. Of course, had nothing to do with oil, global economy or endless hours of Gary Condit. Also, when did we get into the business of choosing the morality of other countries? Is there some Constitutional mandate that says we need to do this? If so, and I am not opposed to it, then we need to do it EVERYWHERE. Otherwise, drop the "we are doing the morally correct thing" bit. Granted, in this context it meets our aims and adds validity to what we are doing. > > > > > The only things I have been able to find on any > > > of these sites regarding the NA have been individual acts, > > nothing as > > > systematic as the torture and murder that the Taliban has > > engaged in the > > > last 5 years. > > > > > > Furthermore, as I said previously, I hope that the King > > (who has been the > > > only one of the Afghan players with any sort of a democratic > > > tendency of the > > > lot) is able to put together a coalition that is a viable > > alternative. > > > > > > As for Vietnam, on a moral scale, what the US did there is > > > nothing near what > > > the Khmer Rouge did to their own people, or the reeducation > > camps that the > > > north Vietnamese operated both before and after the > > conquest of the south. > > > > A moral scale? What the hell is that. We bombed them > > relentlessly, killing > > millions. Morale scale, were do I buy a calibrated one? > > Millions? Not so. Most estimates say in the tens of thousands, at most > 150,000 over a 20 year period. Very different. Where did you get your information. Army of the Republic of Vietnam's - 185,000 - 225,000 killed or MIA North Vietnamese and Viet Cong - 900,000 killed or MIA North and South Vietnamese civilians - 1,000,000 That is close enough to millions for me, no matter which side did it. > > How about the torture that the North Vietnamese and the Viet Cong > inflicted > on the Vietnamese people. To a great extent their behavior is much more > culpable. But you are attempting to divert the discussion. It is about > Afghanistan. What is your point, that our going in there helped the people? The the South Vietnamese government did not do the same? And, no, I am no attempting to divert the discussion, I am bringing a historical point of context. I will thank you to not tell me what I am attempting to do. Thanks. -Gary > > > > > > > > > As for what the US did to the Indians over a century ago, > > that was over a > > > century ago. BTW read what the Iroquois did to the Huron > > for comparison. > > > > Granted, mans inhumanity to man. So, we want to ignore the > > past atrocities > > and just cook up a whole new set of them for our decendents > > to say "As for > > what the US did to the Afghani's over a century ago, that was > > over a century > > ago. BTW read what the US did to the Indians for comparison." > > No what we want to do is to say that those who committed the > atrocities will > answer for it. Western European, and North American countries > have been the > only countries that have tried their own people for war crimes. > > larry > > -- > Larry C. Lyons > ColdFusion/Web Developer > EBStor.com > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > tel: (703) 393-7930 > fax: (703) 393-2659 > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > http://www.pacel.com > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
