> So I'm not sure this helps you,

Be sure it does.

1. I spent precious years receiving a stream of people who were not IT
professionals, and didn't want to be, but had IT rammed down their throats.
To wit: wives of IBM Hursley staff, who signed up for a Human Factors Lab
subject panel.
I briefed them, measured their IQ, then sat behind 1-way glass and watched
them perform on a simulated IT system developed specially for HF
experiments.
Then I watched and edited the video, audio and keystroke logs for hours
until I had their difficulties pinned out like butterflies.
We published a raft of papers in IJMMS and other applied psychology
journals. We got a mean reputation in those circles. We were the Apaches.
More usefully, we showed cocksure programmers how people (…intelligent
people -- we had proof of that) floundered and foundered when using their
wonderful software. Then we helped them up off the floor and stopped them
shooting themselves.

A CIA torture chamber couldn't have done it better (we were equipped like
one, but without the funnels and buckets of water.)

It develops an attitude. Yes – I too am aware that other people tend to be
different from me.

2. My Gilman and Rose had a red cover. I hated the book – oversized,
expensively produced pretentious twaddle. I believe it convinced a
generation that everything they said about APL was true. There was NOTHING
about writing and maintaining a distributable app in it. NOTHING about
solving meaningful problems to the vast majority of people. It was all
"here's this stellar galactic language of the gods. Bow down and grovel."

By contrast I finger APWJ (At Play With J) and Cliff Reiter's book as polar
opposites. Those are clear-eyed, clear-voiced books that make toast of
formidable problems which actually look useful to know something about. If
there's one book that converted me to J, it was APWJ.

(BTW they say that J-ottings is in the pipeline. I thrill to think of it.)

3. Yea…h. Concrete Math had things going for it. So did the books produced
by the I-APL project. Alvord and Thompson. I loved Gary Helzer's manual. I
could actually engage in Joy-in-the-Law over it.

(I think I've said enough.)

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 7:11 PM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Eh... for me that was the J Dictionary, the J Concrete Math book and
> the J Source book. But that was for me...
>
> (Also, before that, I'd gotten quite a lot out of the Gilman and Rose
> book on APL (it had a red cover though - and when I search for it, I
> find a different version with a green cover - I do not know how
> significant the version differences are)).
>
> But also, I've learned long ago that other people tend to be different
> from me.
>
> So I'm not sure this helps you,
>
> --
> Raul
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks, Joe.
> >
> > I have Introductions to J coming out my ears. And before that,
> > Introductions to APL. IMFFHO they all miss the boat.
> > I think at long last I can now write one which touches the button for a
> > bona fide J know-nothing.
> >
> > Arrogance? Not a bit of it. I've simply looked at what other (more
> > popular/successful) language systems do.
> >
> > In a nutshell – what we don't.
> >
> > IF you have a treatment to-hand which you read when you genuinely knew
> > nothing about J
> > ANDIF it motivated you to invest your scarce time in engaging with the
> > language
> > THEN I'd like to see it.
> > ELSE.
> > * * * * *
> > This doesn't look good as I re-read it, I have to admit. But I'm too old
> to
> > be polite if it means not being honest.
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:04 PM, Joe Bogner <joebog...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Ah, I see. I thought to mention just in case the typical programmer
> domain
> >> vocabulary could be avoided or replaced with more J-like terms, which
> seems
> >> to intentionally have chosen simpler, more recognizable terms.  I
> presumed
> >> you were familiar with some of the existing material but I find it
> useful
> >> to refresh my memory on what's out there when starting something new.
> >>
> >> I'm curious, are you writing a "first-contact" text for J? I have read
> >> through several Introduction to J type blog posts or essays over the
> years
> >> that I can pass along if you're interested. There may be something to
> lift
> >> or compare to style-wise.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 11:42 AM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Sorry, Joe, I want "common programmer terms" for "platform, program,
> >> etc",
> >> > i.e. terms common to all programmers, not just J-ers.
> >> >
> >> > Especially not J-ers!
> >> >
> >> > I tried looking up some of these terms in the Oxford Dictionary of
> >> English
> >> > (courtesy Apple) and I'm impressed. It seems it has authoritative but
> >> > straightforward meanings under the subheading "Computing" for all I've
> >> > tried
> >> > .
> >> >
> >> > But I'm still hoping to hear what ISO standard people on this list
> use,
> >> or
> >> > some standards body. I'm taking the baffled silence to mean that
> nobody
> >> has
> >> > ever used such a list. The fabled precision of IT professionals
> doesn't
> >> > extend to terminology, it seems.
> >> >
> >> > Such lists exist. I've seen them – though only in German, and that was
> >> > decades ago. Documenters need them for the purpose of translating
> >> manuals.
> >> > Though maybe the whole thing is still woolly, like it was in my day.
> An
> >> > Arab once told me he always used the English manual because he
> couldn't
> >> > make head or tail of the Arabic one.
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:57 PM, Joe Bogner <joebog...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > I went back and looked at some of the existing material
> >> > >
> >> > > This seems to be a good list of definitions with examples:
> >> > > http://www.jsoftware.com/help/primer/contents.htm
> >> > >
> >> > > This text seems devoid of too many terms:
> >> > > http://www.jsoftware.com/books/pdf/easyj.pdf
> >> > >
> >> > > Of course, I'm not reading these with "beginner eyes" so both may
> still
> >> > > need to be unpacked more
> >> > >
> >> > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 7:28 AM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > It's absurdly difficult to write a good "first-contact" text for J
> >> > > without
> >> > > > reference to a single accepted source of definitions like:
> platform,
> >> > > > program, app, script, variable, constant, function, array, string,
> >> > > > character, number …
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Is there an ISO standard for common programmer terms (in English)?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > If the answer is: legion (…my first impression) – then is there
> one
> >> > that
> >> > > > stands out for you?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I have an operational need for a weblink to a good clear published
> >> free
> >> > > > authoritative text. To avoid cluttering this thread, please don't
> >> offer
> >> > > > your own definitions of the above terms here (although of course
> I'd
> >> be
> >> > > > frightfully interested to hear them one day.)
> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ----------
> >> > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/
> >> forums.htm
> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> >> > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/
> forums.htm
> >> > >
> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/
> forums.htm
> >> >
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> >>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>
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For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm

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