On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 04:32:34 +0100 Stroller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> On 22 Jul 2008, at 14:36, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> >> ...
> >> Sorry to trouble you, but who are these designers, please?
> >
> > i'll let them speak up if they wish to be part of a debate on this.  
> > it's up to
> > them.
> I'd be grateful if someone @openmoko could be a bit transparent about  
> this.
> > ... i have technical reasons why i think the
> > move to remove any such manual control is a bad thing and have made  
> > them clear
> > often enough.
> This is why openness would be beneficial to the community.
> After all the efforts that Openmoko have made over being open, I am  
> just amazed that design decisions that affect everyone are being made  
> in secret.
> >> I think  many of us would like to contribute to the ASU, seeing as
> >> how it's the future of Openmoko, so this would appear to be a
> >> limitation upon community contributions.
> >
> > as such we are paid by openmoko to do what  we are told to do by  
> > the design
> > department and that is what we then do. you in the community can go  
> > and do your
> > own themes and patches and packages and do what u want.
> Openmoko promotes itself as an "open" company soliciting  
> contributions from community developers.
> That's great!
> But if that means I can only develop apps that run ON the phone - or  
> if I want to code for core apps then I need to fork - it would be  
> great if they could say so.
> Sorry to use the alarmist word "fork" here, I don't mean it that way.
> But right now it appears difficult to contribute changes to the ASU  
> window manager (if I'm understanding correctly that that is the  
> component which is missing a manual keyboard toggle button). It is  
> pointless me doing so if I have to maintain this patch all on my own  
> and no-one else is going to benefit. If I want to add a manual  
> keyboard toggle button then that's exactly the scenario - if other  
> people want to use it I effectively have to "fork" the code,  
> maintaining a whole package or firmware image, simply so people can  
> download it from my website.

it was in fact said that "the community can create their own packages" - so as
such you are expected to fork - create modified packages with different config.
as such only maybe 1% of the config e/illume has is actually accessible (in a
gui) in a sane usable way. can't change wallpaper, can't choose a new theme,
can't modify sizes of things, cache sizes, framerates.... this is a design
decision, and thus forces you to fork.

> >> Where are the design documents which say "no keyboard toggle button
> >> should be included", please? If one wishes to contribute code or
> >> patches to ASU then I guess it's necessary to know this, or one will
> >> find patches rejected because they don't meet this design  
> >> specification?
> >
> > well design documents are pretty thin on the ground. i was told so in
> > email/irc directly to do this. i had a manual button there  
> > originally and was
> > explicitly told to remove it.
> Right. So right now there's no point in members of the community  
> trying to contribute patches to core features or functionality, lest  
> these patches get declined because the designers don't happen to like  
> them. Even worse is the prospect of you saying "great! this is really  
> useful, I'll add it to git" and then the community member feeling  
> disappointed (pissed off) later when you're told to remove it.

correct. if you have problems with this - i am not the guy to talk to as it has
been made clear that i am just a programmer here.

> IMO it's crazy for you (the senior developer to ASU? you're surely  
> the most active?) to have his hands tied by these shadowy "designers"  
> who can interfere apparently on a whim. Especially when they're  
> coming up with crazy decisions that are technically poor!!

welcome to openmoko. i get paid to program. i am not a designer (as i have been
told) and thus am not qualified to make decisions there (so i have been
informed). i am paid to program. so that is what i will do.

> On 21 Jul 2008, at 19:47, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>> the problem is the designers decided that ASU is not to have any  
> >>> manual keyboard toggle button because it will disturb the design  
> >>> and/or confuse users, so all apps and toolkits need modification  
> >>> to talk a "protocol" to bring up the keyboard on demand (no  
> >>> manual controls). that is why you need to do this.
> They asked you to take out a simple button, in favour of a whole  
> protocol, when no protocol currently exists? Aside from the points  
> you make about porting existing (Gnome, KDE, whatever) applications  
> to ASU, what's the hard in keeping the button until this protocol is  
> later developed?
> Please would the "designers" speak up so we can flame them directly.
> Presently I think you're misnaming these individuals (this  
> individual?). A design document is required for a design, so that  
> everyone can see the rationale for decisions. Everything that's  
> implemented should have a reason (stated in the design document), and  
> that a button might "disturb the design and/or confuse users" is not  
> a rational reason for having broken apps which can't use a bloomin'  
> keyboard. Making ad-hoc demands for change after the fact is not  
> "designing" it is *meddling*.

i'm keeping out of it. if design wishes to be part of the community, they can.
if not - they can stay silent. up to them.

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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