Saludos, ideoling�istas.
En primer lugar, y como me recomienda el moderador, insisto en no echar
m�s le�a al fuego de la pol�mica batallona (y bastante est�ril) sobre el
nombre de la lengua com�n a baleares, catalanes, andorranos, valencianos,
alguereses y otros.
Dice: Juan Carlos: "I tamb� alg� va respondre que si als de M�rida se'ls
ocorria un dia dir que l'H2SO4 ja no s'ha d'anomenar �cid sulf�ric sin� �cid
flipondic, per dir alguna cosa, doncs apa, a prendre vent la IUPAC, la
qu�mica i la mare que els va parir a tots que els de M�rida manen. Doncs,
res ,a partir d'ara direm a en
Grimes, a l'Ethnologue i companyia que la denominaci� dels dialectes a
partir d'ara la donar� l'Alexandre. Apa noi, comen�a a fer la llista."
Me gustar�a saber qu� son "IUPAC" y "Grimes". El resto de su mensaje es
bien comprensible, y simplemente le digo que, sin �nimo de grescas ni
pol�micas, estoy interesado en una nomenclatura que distinga lo com�n a una
lengua de sus variedades. Como sabemos, el caso es actual y conflictivo en
varias lenguas, como el luso (gallego, brasile�o, portugu�s), el castellano
(espa�ol, mejicano, argentino, chicano, sefard�, etc�tera), el serbocroata
(serbio, croata, bosnio, etc�tera) y el balcavar�s (valenciano, catal�n,
ribagorzano, etc�tera). Lo que no quiero es confusi�n; no quiero que se
confunda la frase "el catal�n neutraliza las vocales �tonas" (v�lida para el
balcavar�s habitual del principado de Catalu�a, o sea el catal�n propiamente
dicho) con la frase que extender�a esa neutralizaci�n a todo el balcavar�s,
cosa bastante falsa en las Baleares o en el reino de Valencia. S� cu�les son
las nomenclaturas habituales internacionales sobre el balcavar�s, pero
discrepo de ellas por razones de claridad; no discrepo simplemente por
discrepar.
Si no partimos cada pelo en cuatro a lo largo, reconoceremos
honradamente que una frase como "el catal�n neutraliza las vocales �tonas"
est� provocando un mont�n de confusi�n a cualquier estudiante de catal�n o
de balcavar�s (que, insisto, no son lo mismo) por el uso extendido y ambiguo
del t�rmino "catal�n". Comparemos con esta otra frase y pronto nos
entenderemos: "El catal�n presenta dos normas diferentes de pronunciaci�n de
las vocales �tonas, seg�n el territorio y la tradici�n hist�rica: en ciertas
zonas se neutralizan las vocales �tonas y en otras se mantiene plenamente la
distinci�n entre vocales �tonas; ambas pronunciaciones son normativas y
correctas.". Creo que no he necesitado partir cada pelo en cuatro para
exponer el problema y sus implicaciones.
Voy a seguir usando el t�rmino "balcavar�s" hasta que los eruditos de
esta lengua me den otra soluci�n. Empezar� por sugerir a Juan Carlos
Azkoitia que tenga en cuenta el punto de vista de la Real Academia de
Cultura Valenciana, ya que el Etn�logo no lo es todo, ni la Biblia.
Otro tema ahora.
El auxiling�ista Leo Moser me sugiere que traduzca y env�e a varias
listas un esquema de una auxilengua que est� preparando, el acadon. A m� me
resultan un tanto cr�pticas las abreviaturas que gasta. Me las ha aclarado,
pero su descripci�n fonol�gica me sigue resultando algo dudosa.
Como sabr�is, siempre apoyo la colaboraci�n y el acuerdo entre los
usuarios y creadores de lenguas auxiliares, as� que bueno ser�a difundir el
proyecto de Leo Moser. Pero primero quiero entender bien su descripci�n
fonol�gica.
Abajo os va el largo texto.
" WENSA is a term that I use for the intercontinental zone of etyma in:
Western Europe, WE; North America, N; South America, S; Australia, A.
Key languages are: Eng. Span. Port. French.
ENANSA is a zone in which the languages of WENSA have added German and
Russian. It stands for Europe (almost all): E (languages like Dutch,
Italian, Polish are likely to exhibit many of these etyma); North Asia
(Siberia + former USSR): NA; North America: N; South America: S; Australia:
A
There are other vocabulary distribution zones that I have defined of,
course.
As you are aware, I continue to work on Acadon. It is a more complex
project than most IAL projects. The (tentative) vocabulary is over 75k
words.
Perhaps Acadon is more complex than any prior IAL, since it is designed
to serve a wider variety of purposes. There is Acadon software for example.
We are in what might be called the alpha-testing stage of much of the Acadon
software.
The Acadon project is in draft form, and I am not able to post a
definitive description. At some point, I will have a webpage that describes
it in great detail. Thus far, this is only in draft and not put up.
IAL is International Auxiliary Language, IMO is In My Opinion; "k" is
kilobyte; ISV is International Scientific Vocabulary; PIE is Proto
Indo-European.
A few basics:
The Acadon project tries to find the most widespread word for each
sememe. It is not Eurocentric, though in many cases the word that is most
widespread may come from a European language.
Project Bahasan, on which there is some data on the web, was a
vocabulary search project designed to find possible word-root-forms for
Acadon.
http://www.langmaker.com/babel/bahasan.htm
Acadon is NOT designed to be readable on sight. That is basically a
hopeless task IMO, unless one counts neoLatinate IALs as "readable" since
one can read them.
In fact, many Acadon texts of a scientific or legal nature may end up
close to readable in Wensa contexts, for example by those who know (say)
both English and Spanish. But that is because legal and ISV words around the
world have often picked up Latinate and Greco-latin roots.
Thus, those who expect that Acadon, since not Wensa-centered, will end
up as an exotic blend of "oriental languages" will be greatly disappointed.
It does not intend to be "exotic" at all; but quite-the-contrary, it intends
to be as familiar as possible to as many as possible. In this, an
Indonesian or Bengali speaker is taken as just as important as a French or
English speaker.
PIE roots are another source, and often go beyond WENSA and ENANSA.
Much that Acadon can offer those beyond the Wensa lands is a vocabulary
that is made up more systematically. Many Latinate irregularities are
regularized or systematized. This makes much of the vocabulary quite
distinctive.
The bad news is that Mandarin Chinese learners will not find vast
amounts of familiar words in Acadon, in part because of the lack of phonemic
tone, etc., but also because those words would in most cases be quite
unfamiliar elsewhere. Yet the Mandarin word has been considered in each
case, and a few found possible to include. It would be possible to construct
from these words a very large set of Acadon sentences in which most of the
words would be familiar to Mandarin speakers. There is value for beginning
learners in this.
The same statement can be made for Hindi, Arabic, Persian, Indonesian,
Japanese, etc. This is not the case with languages that are exclusively
based on Wensa roots or even Enansa roots. (Enansa normally means Wensa plus
both German and Russian)
Over two hundred languages have been considered. All have impact.
Acadon is designed to be easy to learn ~~ worldwide. Its sound system is
devised to allow wobble as encountered for the first time by people from
various linguistic cultures.
A sample of Acadon (a bit dated since its translation by Acadon
software) follows. (So please don't analyze it in detail, it's here to give
an impression of such a text.) I'll send a more recent translation soon.
Since the text is philosophical/legal in nature, the percentage of
Latinate roots turns out to be high. This is not the case by any system of
preference, but based solely on finding these roots in place in so many
languages around the world.
Sample in English
Original text:
From "On Liberty" by John Stuart Mill -- 1859
The object of this Essay is to assert one very simple principle, as
entitled to govern absolutely the dealings of society with the individual in
the way of compulsion and control, whether the means used be physical force
in the form of legal penalties, or the moral coercion of public opinion.
That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted,
individually or collectively in interfering with the liberty of action of
any of their number, is self-protection.
The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any
member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to
others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant.
He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear becauseit will be
better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the
opinions of others, to do so would be wise, or even right.
These are good reasons for remonstrating with him, or reasoning with
him, or persuading him, or entreating him, but not for compelling him, or
visiting him with any evil, in case he do otherwise.
To justify that, the conduct from which it is desired to deter him must
be calculated to produce evil to someone else.
The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to
society, is that which concerns others.
In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of
right, absolute.
Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.
---------- En Acadon (2000) ----------
Da "Epe Libraeto" by Yohan Stuartu Mill* -- 1859
Te objecto di isse Essayo es cu aserti unil veru simple prinsiplo, cam
titulifeat cu governi apsolutim te daeloas di sosio cun te idividuo en te
voho di conpelseo dan controlo, agarin te avieros uslea eser physicale forzo
en te formo di legale poenisintos, au te moralne doeforzeo di publece
opineo.
Ate prinsiplo es, ke te solihe fino por quale antropaeo esi mandeiveat,
idividuim au conlectuarim en interferoa cun te libraeto di acteo di ule di
lorie numbero, es autum protectueo.
Te sole proteluo fro quale poturo poti eser rectim exergisea surim ule
membro di un siviliseat comunaeto, antil talie volo, es cu prifendi noxo dau
otros.
Talie prive bono, aunil physicale au moralne, es noe un sufsante
mandeivo.
Tal non poti rectim eser conpulsea cu fa au tolrisi causin cin vol eser
meliore fro tali cu fa sou, causin cin vol fabri tali felixere, causin, en
te opineos di otros, cu fa sou volia eser sopha, au evese recte.
Issos esi bone razionos por cotremostroa cun tali, au razionoa cun tali,
au suasdoa tali, au pregenoa tali, lacen noe por conpulsoa tali, au visitoa
tali cun ule mauliso, en ucaso que tal fa otroho.
Cu justifi ato, te conducto da quale cin es daesirea cu disfendi tali
debui eser calculea cu producti mauliso dau alqaren otrin.
Te sole partio dit conducto di ularen, por quale tal es aepasve dau
sosio, es ate quale charenis otros.
En te partio qale solenim charenis tal ipso, talie nisdepiendaeto es, di
recto, apsolute.
Surim tal ipso, surim talie prive corpo dan miento, te idividuo es
soverejene.
---------- notes ----------
There are pages of various explanations that could be supplied, only a
few aspects are mentioned below.
Mill used "he" for the individual. In that era, that was the grammatical
"solution" that reigned. But Mill believed in the rights of women, so he
meant what can only be expressed in English with "he/she" "(s)he" etc.
Acadon has no problem here; the text uses the non-sex-defined Acadon pronoun
"tal."
Spelling is fully regular and simpler than Spanish, but does have some
special rules.
The letter K, is pronounced [kj].
The letter C is always [k] when not in the combination CH, which is
[tS].
J is [dZ].
Z is [ts].
AE is [aj]; OE is [oj]; ai, oi, and ei are all two-syllable.
Y is [ej].
PH is [fj].
TH is [tj].
Prefixes, morphemics:
The nis- prefix replaces the in- of "independence," the ir- of
irregular, etc.
Acadon affixes are far more regularly applied than in Latinate
vocabularies. This makes many Acadon words quite different than those in any
other IAL. When the word selection process is not Eurocentric, there is no
need at all to follow irregular conventions simply because they have gotten
into Latinate forms.
...
Best regards, LEO, Leo J. Moser, E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Veo que utilizas varias letras con significaci�n de sonidos dobles.
�Son realmente dos sonidos para cada letra, o se trata de una sola
consonante africada en cada caso?
- La consonante + una "y" [j]. Ergo -ss- = -sy-.
- Si te interpreto bien, "ae" y "oe" son las formas diptongadas de "ai"
y "oi",
- S�.
- Mientras que estas �ltimas separan sil�bicamente cada vocal.
- S�. En general.
Notas:
ch, como en espa�ol.
j, como en ingl�s.
k, como [kj].
ph, como [fj]
th, como [tj].
z, como en alem�n [ts].
qu como [kw].
w, como en ingl�s.
x, como en ingl�s SH [S].
- �C�mo es la acentuaci�n oral de las palabras en acadon?
- Final, en general.
Otros cuatro ejemplos en una forma de Acadon:
---------- Te wolco dan te caeno ----------
Un fambre wolco venea dau un paele caeno dan dictea: "Bone Amigae, ami
esa soe fambre ke ami non pota dormi. Ni, buquan esi magne dan alipe. Quou
fa ni
quiri nie nutrato? Quou fa ni vita? Quou fa ni edsa?"
"Ami esa te servantae di mie maestrae," spondea te caeno. "Ami servi mie
maestrae, ami guardi mie maestrae su beito. Tocaus, mie maestrae donas mi
cam quante cu edsa cam ami appa."
Titem te wolco dictea, "Ami vita veru povrim. Dieno dan nocto mo
safaromli perin te lenlos dan feldos, wa paendi nulinto cu edsa por mie
sposenae dan mie kindaes. Ami pota nule longere vita ise voyo. Mie sposenae
dan kindaes esi mortoa di fambrato. Tocaus, mo vel plusil biani un servantae
di muntuaes, wa guardi lorie beitos."
Te caeno dan te wolco courea symim perin te lenlos cu te caeno su beito.
Turandim te wolco visdis te caeno su golro. Han es astonisea, wa han dictis:
"Ami visdi nie golro es absim pilio. Questic omne caenos habi golros absim
pilio? "
"Nule," spondea te caeno. "Noe omne caenos. Ami usleni un cedaeno en te
solnevro. Endotem te dieno mo lajea en fronto di mie maestrae su beito surim
un cedaeno. Te cedaeno es ferue, wa feruo es durne. Tocaus ami habi nule
pilio surim mie golro. Lacen xe nocto ami esa libre. Endotem te nocto ami
safaromli panor ami volni."
"Derege bradae," dictea te wolco dau te caeno. "Fambrata es durne, lacen
te cedaeno es durnere. Ami usleni nule cedaeno, wa vola noe usleni unil.
Meliorohe ke ami morti da fambrato cun mie sposenae dan kindaes. Couri wen
lonohe roena oe nie maestrae. Cin es meliorohe cu eser fambre chem alipo;
cin es meliorohe cu eser libre chem cu usleni un cedaeno. Valeho."
---------- Macxine Translateo ----------
Macxine translateo non fas simplim translati tecsto vorbo bae vorbo
lacen infactuim analysis sentensos basea surim te reglos di te lenguo, wa
translatis te vorbos dan frazos en te contecsto dit origenale documento.
Quancam noe parfecte, macxine translateo ofertis un altere nevello di
presnaeto dan lesdoro convedeo chem te standarde automatice translateo
programos sitempim advaluable.
---------- HERDER y GOETHE ----------
Te ideyo di mundio letraturo, qual Herder dan Goethe habea consepsea
essentialim da te vistrepunco di Arta, habis sitem aequirea un mahaxere
vaxnaeto da te vistrepunco di siento. Interim te commune posesdeos di
antropaeo, nulinto es cam verim universale dan internatione cam siento.
Lacen omne comneo dan greseo en siento es bae avieras di lenguo, wa soho te
internationaeto di siento resistabsim ecsijas internationaeto en lenguo.
Agar nos umpensi ace sidio pollene sientice obras, particlarim tecstum
citabos, esi translatea imin un dozeno au plu estranxe lenguos, titem nos
pota vedi que exnorme quantido di labora potia eser salvea, agar tiale
citabas omnou en te mundio potia eser vedea cam generalnim cam, por
exsamplo, musicale zaxas au logaritmice tablas.
--------------------------------
Genesis 1
[1] En te caexoa Theoso createa le Sielesdo dan le Tiero.
[2] Le Tiero esea absim formo, wa vacuele; wa Oscuraeto esea epe te
fasio di le Dobo. Wa le Espirito di Theoso moutea epe te fasio dit aquos.
[3] Titem Theoso dictea, "Letnau lucso eser." Wa etor esea lucso.
[4] Wa Theoso visdea te lucso, ke cin esea bone; wa Theoso divisea te
lucso da te oscuraeto.
[5] Wa Theoso chiamea te lucso "Dieno," wa te oscuraeto Han chiamea
"Nocto." Wa te evesoa dan te maraeno sea te primie dieno.
[6] Titem Theoso dictea, "Letnau un firmamento eser en te medsino dit
aquos; wa letnau cin divisi isses aquos da ates aquos."
[7] Wa Theoso fabrea te firmamento, wa divisea te aquos qual sea sube te
firmamento da te aquos qual sea supro te sieluro; wa cin esea soi.
[8] Wa Theoso chiamea te firmamento le Sielesdo. Wa te evesoa dan te
maraeno sea te zecunde dieno.
[9] Titem Theoso dictea, "Letnau te aquos sube le Sielesdo eser gregea
symim dau unil louca, wa letnau te sece lando aparsi;" wa cin esea soi.
[10] Theoso chiamea te sece lando le Tiero; wa te gregeo symim dit aquos
Han chiamea le Maro; wa Theoso visdea ke cin esea bone.
[11] Titem Theoso dictea, "Letnau le Tiero daeli eceim zauso, te herbo
cesionoa semno, wa te fructe dendro cesionoa fructo posle hanie genlo,
quanie semno es en cin ipso, epe te tiero;" wa cin esea soi.
[12] Wa te tiero aeportea eceim zauso, wa herbo cesionoa semno posle
hanie genlo, wa te dendro cesionoa fructo, quanie semno esea en cin ipso,
posle hanie genlo; wa Theoso visdea ke cin esea bone.
[13] Wa te evesoa dan te maraeno sea te trimie dieno.
[14] Titem Theoso dictea, "Letnau lucsos eser en te firmamento di le
Sielesdo cu divisi te dieno da te nocto; wa letnau lori eser por signos, wa
por saezonos, wa por dienos dan nianos;"
[15] "Wa letnau lori eser por lucsos en te firmamento di le Sielesdo cu
doni lucso epe le Tiero;" wa cin esea soi.
[16] Wa Theoso fabrea dua mahaxe lucsos; te mahaxere lucso cu regli te
dieno, wa te minusere lucso cu regli te nocto; plusil Han fabrea te astros.
[17] Wa Theoso setau lori en te firmamento di le Sielesdo cu doni lucso
epe le Tiero,
[18] Wa cu regli sobrem te dieno dan sobrem te nocto, wa cu divisi te
lucso da te oscuraeto; wa Theoso visdea ke cin esea bone.
[19] Wa te evesoa dan te maraeno sea te quadrimie dieno.
[20] Titem Theoso dictea, "Letnau te aquos daeli eceim aboundantim te
moutoa creaturo ke habasit vito, wa poulavio ke potena feili supro le Tiero
en te operte firmamento di le Sielesdo."
[21] Wa Theoso createa mahaxe balaeno, wa omnil vitoa creaturo ke
moutasit, qual te aquos aeportea eceim aboundantim, posle lorie genloe, wa
omnil petnea poulavio posle hanie genlo; wa Theoso visdea ke cin esea bone.
[22] Titem Theoso barucea lori, dictoa, "Eser fructale, wa multiplici,
wa polnati te aquos en le Maro, wa letnau poulavio multiplici en le Tiero."
[23] Wa te evesoa dan te maraeno sea te penvimie dieno.
[24] Titem Theoso dictea, "Letnau te tiero daeli eceim te vitoa creaturo
posle hanie genlo, bovaruo, wa reptenoa cinto, wa bestio dit tiero posle
hanie genlo;" wa
cin esea soi.
[25] Wa Theoso fabrea te bestio di le Tiero posle hanie genlo, wa
bovaruo posle lorie genlo, wa omnil cinto ke reptenasit epe le Tiero posle
hanie genlo; wa Theoso visdea ke cin esea bone.
[26] Wa Theoso dictea, "Letnau nosu fabri muntuae en nosie imago, posle
nosie camlaeto; wa letnau lori habi domneniso sobrem te pesquo dit maro, wa
sobrem te poulavio dit aero, wa sobrem te bovaruo, wa sobrem omne le Tiero,
wa sobrem omnil reptenoa cinto ke reptenasit epe le Tiero."
[27] Soi Theoso createa muntuae en Hanie privna imago, en te imago di
Theoso, Han createa hanu; mascle dan femne Han createa lori.".
##################
Bueno, pues esto es todo. Localizando versiones en castellano de los
textos no b�blicos en acadon podr�ais ayudarme tambi�n. Gracias y hasta otra
ocasi�n.
De Alexandre Xavier Casanova Domingo.
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