On 7/6/2011 4:44 AM, Russell Standish wrote:
Constantine, this is a rather trollish comment coming from an ignorant
position.

Let me put the following gedanken experiment - consider the
possibility that T. Rex might be either green or blue creatures, and
that either possibility is physically consistent with everything we
know about them. In a Multiverse (such as we consider here), we are in
a superposition of histories, which include both green and blue
T. Rexes.

Then one day, someone discovers an exquisitely fossilised T. Rex
feather, from which it is possible to determine the T. Rex's colour by
means of photonics. Let us say, that the colour was determined to be
green to everybody's satisfaction. But there is an alternate universe,
where the colour was determined to be blue. This universe has now
differentiated from our own, on the single fact of T. Rex colour.

The question is, when was the colour of the dinosaur established as a
fact? Many of us many worlders would argue it wasn't established
until the photonics measurement was made - there was no 'matter of
fact' about the dinosaur colour prior to that.

If the decoherence theory of how the classical arises from QM, the color became a classical fact in our branch of the universe a very long time ago.

Generalising from this, it is quite plausible that suns and stars did
not exist prior to there being minds to perceive them. It is somewhat
disorienting to realise this possibility, ingrained as we are from
birth to believing in a directly perecived external reality. Yet the
reality we perceive is very definitely a construction of our minds - a
confabulation as it were, and there is not one scrap of evidence that
that reality exists independently of our minds.

BTW Bruno is not assuming that consciousnes preceded matter, he is
instead assuming that consciousness is the result of the running of
some computer program, as I'm sure he would tell you. The consequence
of that latter assumption is that perceived reality is just that - a
perception.

But it does seem a little presumptuous to suppose that the stars did not exist before I (who's this "we"?) perceived them and yet claim that arithmetic existed before anybody could count.

Brent

On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 08:14:23PM -0700, Constantine Pseudonymous wrote:
Bruno assumes that consciousness preceded matter....

then why do we only find consciousness as a terrestrial phenomena
(suns and stars aren't conscious).. and as a later stage terrestrial
phenomena for that matter.... i.e. water, plants, minerals etc. are
not conscious..... and intellect and understanding in any real sense
are found in even later stage terrestrial forms, and we have physical
explanations for this.......

Bruno sins against naturalism and all that we know and intuit.

He will do anything to resurrect from the dead some rudimentary and
vague Mysticism.

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