Stars are a body..... our first-person experience is dependent on a body...
since first there was stars... second there was body, allowing for
first-person experience of stars.

There could be no first-person experience of stars prior to a human form....
There could be no first-person experience prior to form..... unless you
believe in some spiritual gnosticism.

If you abstract all feeling and sensation and phenomena and forces from a
"monadic consciousness"..... what you have is what can only be called
"unconsciousness" and no technical first-person experience whatsoever...
especially not in the self-conscious self-identifying rationally
self-realized sense.

Form is necessary for first-person experience. Form is necessary for
first-person moments. We know no other.

Do you not believe in evolution in some sense?

On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:52 AM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

> On 7/6/2011 4:44 AM, Russell Standish wrote:
>
>> Constantine, this is a rather trollish comment coming from an ignorant
>> position.
>>
>> Let me put the following gedanken experiment - consider the
>> possibility that T. Rex might be either green or blue creatures, and
>> that either possibility is physically consistent with everything we
>> know about them. In a Multiverse (such as we consider here), we are in
>> a superposition of histories, which include both green and blue
>> T. Rexes.
>>
>> Then one day, someone discovers an exquisitely fossilised T. Rex
>> feather, from which it is possible to determine the T. Rex's colour by
>> means of photonics. Let us say, that the colour was determined to be
>> green to everybody's satisfaction. But there is an alternate universe,
>> where the colour was determined to be blue. This universe has now
>> differentiated from our own, on the single fact of T. Rex colour.
>>
>> The question is, when was the colour of the dinosaur established as a
>> fact? Many of us many worlders would argue it wasn't established
>> until the photonics measurement was made - there was no 'matter of
>> fact' about the dinosaur colour prior to that.
>>
>>
>
> If the decoherence theory of how the classical arises from QM, the color
> became a classical fact in our branch of the universe a very long time ago.
>
>  Generalising from this, it is quite plausible that suns and stars did
>> not exist prior to there being minds to perceive them. It is somewhat
>> disorienting to realise this possibility, ingrained as we are from
>> birth to believing in a directly perecived external reality. Yet the
>> reality we perceive is very definitely a construction of our minds - a
>> confabulation as it were, and there is not one scrap of evidence that
>> that reality exists independently of our minds.
>>
>> BTW Bruno is not assuming that consciousnes preceded matter, he is
>> instead assuming that consciousness is the result of the running of
>> some computer program, as I'm sure he would tell you. The consequence
>> of that latter assumption is that perceived reality is just that - a
>> perception.
>>
>>
>
> But it does seem a little presumptuous to suppose that the stars did not
> exist before I (who's this "we"?) perceived them and yet claim that
> arithmetic existed before anybody could count.
>
> Brent
>
>  On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 08:14:23PM -0700, Constantine Pseudonymous wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Bruno assumes that consciousness preceded matter....
>>>
>>> then why do we only find consciousness as a terrestrial phenomena
>>> (suns and stars aren't conscious).. and as a later stage terrestrial
>>> phenomena for that matter.... i.e. water, plants, minerals etc. are
>>> not conscious..... and intellect and understanding in any real sense
>>> are found in even later stage terrestrial forms, and we have physical
>>> explanations for this.......
>>>
>>> Bruno sins against naturalism and all that we know and intuit.
>>>
>>> He will do anything to resurrect from the dead some rudimentary and
>>> vague Mysticism.
>>>
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>>
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