Stars are a body..... our first-person experience is dependent on a body... since first there was stars... second there was body, allowing for first-person experience of stars.
There could be no first-person experience of stars prior to a human form.... There could be no first-person experience prior to form..... unless you believe in some spiritual gnosticism. If you abstract all feeling and sensation and phenomena and forces from a "monadic consciousness"..... what you have is what can only be called "unconsciousness" and no technical first-person experience whatsoever... especially not in the self-conscious self-identifying rationally self-realized sense. Form is necessary for first-person experience. Form is necessary for first-person moments. We know no other. Do you not believe in evolution in some sense? On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:52 AM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: > On 7/6/2011 4:44 AM, Russell Standish wrote: > >> Constantine, this is a rather trollish comment coming from an ignorant >> position. >> >> Let me put the following gedanken experiment - consider the >> possibility that T. Rex might be either green or blue creatures, and >> that either possibility is physically consistent with everything we >> know about them. In a Multiverse (such as we consider here), we are in >> a superposition of histories, which include both green and blue >> T. Rexes. >> >> Then one day, someone discovers an exquisitely fossilised T. Rex >> feather, from which it is possible to determine the T. Rex's colour by >> means of photonics. Let us say, that the colour was determined to be >> green to everybody's satisfaction. But there is an alternate universe, >> where the colour was determined to be blue. This universe has now >> differentiated from our own, on the single fact of T. Rex colour. >> >> The question is, when was the colour of the dinosaur established as a >> fact? Many of us many worlders would argue it wasn't established >> until the photonics measurement was made - there was no 'matter of >> fact' about the dinosaur colour prior to that. >> >> > > If the decoherence theory of how the classical arises from QM, the color > became a classical fact in our branch of the universe a very long time ago. > > Generalising from this, it is quite plausible that suns and stars did >> not exist prior to there being minds to perceive them. It is somewhat >> disorienting to realise this possibility, ingrained as we are from >> birth to believing in a directly perecived external reality. Yet the >> reality we perceive is very definitely a construction of our minds - a >> confabulation as it were, and there is not one scrap of evidence that >> that reality exists independently of our minds. >> >> BTW Bruno is not assuming that consciousnes preceded matter, he is >> instead assuming that consciousness is the result of the running of >> some computer program, as I'm sure he would tell you. The consequence >> of that latter assumption is that perceived reality is just that - a >> perception. >> >> > > But it does seem a little presumptuous to suppose that the stars did not > exist before I (who's this "we"?) perceived them and yet claim that > arithmetic existed before anybody could count. > > Brent > > On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 08:14:23PM -0700, Constantine Pseudonymous wrote: >> >> >>> Bruno assumes that consciousness preceded matter.... >>> >>> then why do we only find consciousness as a terrestrial phenomena >>> (suns and stars aren't conscious).. and as a later stage terrestrial >>> phenomena for that matter.... i.e. water, plants, minerals etc. are >>> not conscious..... and intellect and understanding in any real sense >>> are found in even later stage terrestrial forms, and we have physical >>> explanations for this....... >>> >>> Bruno sins against naturalism and all that we know and intuit. >>> >>> He will do anything to resurrect from the dead some rudimentary and >>> vague Mysticism. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to >>> everything-list@googlegroups.**com<[email protected]> >>> . >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> everything-list+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<everything-list%[email protected]> >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>> group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> >>> . >>> >>> >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to > everything-list@googlegroups.**com<[email protected]> > . > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscribe@ > **googlegroups.com <everything-list%[email protected]>. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** > group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> > . > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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