I would refer you to the Buddhistic notion of the negation of any ultimate monadic consciousness whatsoever.
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 11:28 AM, B Soroud <[email protected]> wrote: > Stars are a body..... our first-person experience is dependent on a body... > since first there was stars... second there was body, allowing for > first-person experience of stars. > > There could be no first-person experience of stars prior to a human > form.... There could be no first-person experience prior to form..... unless > you believe in some spiritual gnosticism. > > If you abstract all feeling and sensation and phenomena and forces from a > "monadic consciousness"..... what you have is what can only be called > "unconsciousness" and no technical first-person experience whatsoever... > especially not in the self-conscious self-identifying rationally > self-realized sense. > > Form is necessary for first-person experience. Form is necessary for > first-person moments. We know no other. > > Do you not believe in evolution in some sense? > > > On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:52 AM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On 7/6/2011 4:44 AM, Russell Standish wrote: >> >>> Constantine, this is a rather trollish comment coming from an ignorant >>> position. >>> >>> Let me put the following gedanken experiment - consider the >>> possibility that T. Rex might be either green or blue creatures, and >>> that either possibility is physically consistent with everything we >>> know about them. In a Multiverse (such as we consider here), we are in >>> a superposition of histories, which include both green and blue >>> T. Rexes. >>> >>> Then one day, someone discovers an exquisitely fossilised T. Rex >>> feather, from which it is possible to determine the T. Rex's colour by >>> means of photonics. Let us say, that the colour was determined to be >>> green to everybody's satisfaction. But there is an alternate universe, >>> where the colour was determined to be blue. This universe has now >>> differentiated from our own, on the single fact of T. Rex colour. >>> >>> The question is, when was the colour of the dinosaur established as a >>> fact? Many of us many worlders would argue it wasn't established >>> until the photonics measurement was made - there was no 'matter of >>> fact' about the dinosaur colour prior to that. >>> >>> >> >> If the decoherence theory of how the classical arises from QM, the color >> became a classical fact in our branch of the universe a very long time ago. >> >> Generalising from this, it is quite plausible that suns and stars did >>> not exist prior to there being minds to perceive them. It is somewhat >>> disorienting to realise this possibility, ingrained as we are from >>> birth to believing in a directly perecived external reality. Yet the >>> reality we perceive is very definitely a construction of our minds - a >>> confabulation as it were, and there is not one scrap of evidence that >>> that reality exists independently of our minds. >>> >>> BTW Bruno is not assuming that consciousnes preceded matter, he is >>> instead assuming that consciousness is the result of the running of >>> some computer program, as I'm sure he would tell you. The consequence >>> of that latter assumption is that perceived reality is just that - a >>> perception. >>> >>> >> >> But it does seem a little presumptuous to suppose that the stars did not >> exist before I (who's this "we"?) perceived them and yet claim that >> arithmetic existed before anybody could count. >> >> Brent >> >> On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 08:14:23PM -0700, Constantine Pseudonymous wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Bruno assumes that consciousness preceded matter.... >>>> >>>> then why do we only find consciousness as a terrestrial phenomena >>>> (suns and stars aren't conscious).. and as a later stage terrestrial >>>> phenomena for that matter.... i.e. water, plants, minerals etc. are >>>> not conscious..... and intellect and understanding in any real sense >>>> are found in even later stage terrestrial forms, and we have physical >>>> explanations for this....... >>>> >>>> Bruno sins against naturalism and all that we know and intuit. >>>> >>>> He will do anything to resurrect from the dead some rudimentary and >>>> vague Mysticism. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>> everything-list@googlegroups.**com<[email protected]> >>>> . >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> everything-list+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<everything-list%[email protected]> >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>>> group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to >> everything-list@googlegroups.**com<[email protected]> >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> everything-list+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<everything-list%[email protected]> >> . >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >> group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> >> . >> >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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