On Jul 6, 12:44 pm, Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au> wrote:
> Constantine, this is a rather trollish comment coming from an ignorant
> position.
>
> Let me put the following gedanken experiment - consider the
> possibility that T. Rex might be either green or blue creatures, and
> that either possibility is physically consistent with everything we
> know about them. In a Multiverse (such as we consider here), we are in
> a superposition of histories, which include both green and blue
> T. Rexes.
>
> Then one day, someone discovers an exquisitely fossilised T. Rex
> feather, from which it is possible to determine the T. Rex's colour by
> means of photonics. Let us say, that the colour was determined to be
> green to everybody's satisfaction. But there is an alternate universe,
> where the colour was determined to be blue. This universe has now
> differentiated from our own, on the single fact of T. Rex colour.
>
> The question is, when was the colour of the dinosaur established as a
> fact? Many of us many worlders would argue it wasn't established
> until the photonics measurement was made - there was no 'matter of
> fact' about the dinosaur colour prior to that.
>
> Generalising from this, it is quite plausible that suns and stars did
> not exist

You are playing on two meanings of "fact"; that something is not
known until time T does not mean it pops into existence at time
T. Truth is not existence.

>prior to there being minds to perceive them. It is somewhat
> disorienting to realise this possibility, ingrained as we are from
> birth to believing in a directly perecived external reality. Yet the
> reality we perceive is very definitely a construction of our minds - a
> confabulation as it were, and there is not one scrap of evidence that
> that reality exists independently of our minds.

The evidence that reality exists independent of out minds
is just the evidence that other people's brains exist and
work in such-and-such a way. No scientific evidence can disprove
reality, including evidence about brains.

It may well be the case that our perceptions of reality
include feed-forward, reconstruction, interpretation, etc, etc.
But that does not mean there is no objective world. Indirect
perception of the world is still perception of the world,
Indirect perception does not move reality inside
the head anymore than photography steals souls.

> BTW Bruno is not assuming that consciousness preceded matter, he is
> instead assuming that consciousness is the result of the running of
> some computer program, as I'm sure he would tell you. The consequence
> of that latter assumption is that perceived reality is just that - a
> perception.



>
> On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 08:14:23PM -0700, Constantine Pseudonymous wrote:
> > Bruno assumes that consciousness preceded matter....
>
> > then why do we only find consciousness as a terrestrial phenomena
> > (suns and stars aren't conscious).. and as a later stage terrestrial
> > phenomena for that matter.... i.e. water, plants, minerals etc. are
> > not conscious..... and intellect and understanding in any real sense
> > are found in even later stage terrestrial forms, and we have physical
> > explanations for this.......
>
> > Bruno sins against naturalism and all that we know and intuit.
>
> > He will do anything to resurrect from the dead some rudimentary and
> > vague Mysticism.
>
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Prof Russell Standish                  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> Principal, High Performance Coders
> Visiting Professor of Mathematics      hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
> University of New South Wales          http://www.hpcoders.com.au
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