On 12 Aug 2011, at 14:30, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On Aug 12, 5:01 am, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
On 11 Aug 2011, at 14:16, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On Aug 11, 1:14 am, Stathis Papaioannou <stath...@gmail.com> wrote:

The conclusion is that such a device is
impossible because it leads to conceptual difficulties.

Consciousness itself leads to conceptual difficulties. Except for the
fact that we cannot ignore that it is undeniable, we could never
logically conceive of consciousness.

Can we logically conceive a reality?

Sure, as long as it's a reality within our own perceptual relativity
frame of reference.

That is too vague for me to comment. I don't know what you are assuming.



The further our imaginary reality is from our own
PRIF, the less likely that it could reflect the concrete experiences
that would occur there if that reality were manifested physically.

How would you justify that?



What can be shown is that each of two universal machines put in front
of each other can develop a true and incommunicable belief in a
reality. I think that's consciousness. It is an instinctive belief in
a reality. Self-consciousness is that same belief but with a belief in
a separation between the believer and the believed.

I think it depends on what the machines actually are physically as to
what they will be able to believe or develop.

What do you mean by "physically"?



If you execute the
machine in silicon, you're going to have a polite glass sculpture of
belief, not a fierce, viscerally passionate belief.

So mind is something physical and non Turing emulable. But we don't know anything physical which is not either Turing emulable, or recovered by self-indetermination (like in quantum superposition). So, to solve a problem, you are introducing more mystery than there is already. I don't see how this can solve anything. In french we call that a "fuite en avant" (forward-escape).



The math alone can
create a correspondence as-if it were true, but only the physics

With the comp theory, physics is an emerging pattern in the mind of numbers. A good thing, because I don't take physics for granted, at least not in a primitively grounded way.



can
create the conditions of true through experience in spite of logic,
which is what gives the believer not only separation but something of
a trump-card privilege over the believed.

I can follow you, but it makes both mind and matter rather magical.



In a contest of math v
physics, I think the physical can generate novelties in advance of
math,

But what is the physical?


so that the arithmetic is an analytical afterthought.

How to explain that the physical obeys to the arithmetical? How will you explain the role of math in physics?




Physics
cannot be anticipated from the math alone,

Why?
I can understand that is true for geography, but why to assert this for physics? What is physics?



it can only be reverse
engineered from factual physical observations.

But what is that?


Math can of course be
used to build on physics as well (nuclear fission, etc) but it still
requires a priori indexes of atomic behaviors which are independent
from pure arithmetic.

Why? I mean, even if comp is false, why would we a priori reject an explanation, if the goal was not for justifying that sort of silicon racism. It seems to me that you make matter, mind, the relation between awfully mysterious just to justify a segregation among possible entities for personhood.

At least you are coherent, you seems to need stuffy matter, like the EM field, then mechanism cannot make sense, unless I am wrong somewhere 'course.

Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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