On Aug 12, 5:01 am, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
> On 11 Aug 2011, at 14:16, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> > On Aug 11, 1:14 am, Stathis Papaioannou <stath...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> The conclusion is that such a device is
> >> impossible because it leads to conceptual difficulties.
> > Consciousness itself leads to conceptual difficulties. Except for the
> > fact that we cannot ignore that it is undeniable, we could never
> > logically conceive of consciousness.
> Can we logically conceive a reality?

Sure, as long as it's a reality within our own perceptual relativity
frame of reference. The further our imaginary reality is from our own
PRIF, the less likely that it could reflect the concrete experiences
that would occur there if that reality were manifested physically.

> What can be shown is that each of two universal machines put in front  
> of each other can develop a true and incommunicable belief in a  
> reality. I think that's consciousness. It is an instinctive belief in  
> a reality. Self-consciousness is that same belief but with a belief in  
> a separation between the believer and the believed.

I think it depends on what the machines actually are physically as to
what they will be able to believe or develop. If you execute the
machine in silicon, you're going to have a polite glass sculpture of
belief, not a fierce, viscerally passionate belief. The math alone can
create a correspondence as-if it were true, but only the physics can
create the conditions of true through experience in spite of logic,
which is what gives the believer not only separation but something of
a trump-card privilege over the believed. In a contest of math v
physics, I think the physical can generate novelties in advance of
math, so that the arithmetic is an analytical afterthought. Physics
cannot be anticipated from the math alone, it can only be reverse
engineered from factual physical observations. Math can of course be
used to build on physics as well (nuclear fission, etc) but it still
requires a priori indexes of atomic behaviors which are independent
from pure arithmetic.



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