On 07 Dec 2011, at 17:14, benjayk wrote:

meekerdb wrote:

And because of that, we can't assume that it only matters that the
computations are being done, but it may matter how the computations are
and how they are being interfaced with the environment.
One could define computer more narrowly to exclude input and output, but
this case a substitution is impossible, because without input and output
brain or body can't work.

Yes, that's why I think the "level of substitution" might be a whole
And there is no other to this universe, or something transcendent to it? This seems to be incoherent with Brunos conclusion, because the conclusion entails that not all of the universe can be digital. But if there is not other (or something trascendent to it) that provides input or that output is given to, the substituted universe could only consists of the computations.

[The following is not on this sub-discussion, but is more an extension of my
first post about the consciousness singularity:]

meekerdb wrote:

Tegmark's argument that the brain is essentially classical only shows that you could replace a brain with a digital computer IF you still have
the rest of the universe to interact with.
Tegmark's argument shows only that the brain is essentially classical if we assume decoherence works the same in natural systems as in our "artificial" experiments. But it seems natural systems have a better ability to remain coherent, when it would be impossible otherwise (see photosynthesis). So it
seems we can't rely on Tegmarks assumption.
For me, it seems pretty evident now that there is something special to life after all in the way it relates to physical laws and in importance of the universe. It is just not plausible at all why the universe would be capable
of self-accelerating evolution if there is no inherent drive in nature
towards intelligence (not human intelligence, universal intelligence,
capability of self-learning). Why would carbon be able to form all these complex bounds, and DNA be able to encode information in such a way that it is so extremely versatile and universal in its expression, and even more amazingly, why would it be working in such a way that at some point very
small changes can have extremely large effects in terms of
learning-capability (look at humans vs other animals).
It is utterly and totally implausible that this is chance, or is a necessity
that just happens to be good for intellignent life (why would it?).
Granted, we can invoke the anthrophic principle, but then we are really granting that ultimately subjectivity shapes the apparent cosmos, which most
scientist want to avoid desperately.

Most materialist just say: Well, the natural laws are just there, without
any particular reason or meaning behind them, we have to take them for
granted. But this is almost as unconvincing as saying "A creator God is just there, we have to take him for granted". It makes no sense (it would be a totally absurd universe), and there also is no evidence that natural laws are primary (we don't find laws to describe the Big Bang and very plausibly,
there are none because it is a mathematical singularity).

I think it is much much much more convincing (not to mention wonderful), that the universe is based on an inherent self-organizing, self- learning
consciousness, the I/Self.
It is the ultimate singularity (including the Big Bang singularity).

It is self-evident, and self-explaining (through the evolution of the
cosmos), and extremely simple (it is just Self) so it naturally needs no
further external explanation.
The only reason that this is not accepted is because the scientific
community is predominatly dogmatically materialistic and based on
scienticsm. It doesn't want something transcendent trans-scientifc,
trans-rational, trans-objective as its base.
But that it is just self-denial, because science always needs something beyond science to justify even its most fundamental premises ("the universe
is basically lawful" for example) and to interpret results (eg QM).

Once we take this possibility seriously many many difficult questions become
much more answerable (even though of course there is always infinite
ignorance about fundamental questions).
Why is the universe so orderly? Because consciousness is, as everybody can
observe for themselves, self-ordering through self-seeing.
Why does its behaviour approximate laws, but is still not entirely
predictable? Because natural laws are useful for consciousness to navigate
the world and use it.
Why is there life and why is the universe suited for life? Because the
universe (multiverse) is already intelligent and uses life for further
development towards even more intelligence.
If the universe is intelligent, why does it appear so stupid and uncaring and unconscious oftentimes? It is not humanly intelligent, consciousness is not rational or moral or planning, it only sees its own order, which may be "stupid" from the persepective of humans, but still has its own intelligence (which lies in its simplicity). Consciousness does not belong to something and has no location, so we can't find consciousness in particular matter. What is the meaning of all of this? Self-meaning. Self-order. Ultimately leading to ever increasing, boundless insight, creativity and happiness. It's all we could ever wish for, and unimaginably much more. It provides a infinite richness of unlimited beauty that is so marvelous that our wildest
imaginations of heaven (or the nerd equivalent the technological
singularity) are not even a pale shadow of the truth and the real goodness
of our future.
What is the fate of the cosmos? Ever increasing self-order at ever greater scales and at ever greater efficiency, ever increasing unity, connection,
Why can paranormal events not be easily verified scientifically? They aren't
objective phenomena, the objective world is just a small aspect of
consciousness - if we try to objectify them (get rid of subjective
influences, like done in science) they largly vanish.

I can relate with many things you say.
Indeed I can argue that the universal (Löbian) machine already relate on this, too.

But science get rid only on subjective judgement in publication (ideally), making them universally communicable.

But considering the subjective influence themselves, science prohibit them only by bad habits, ignorance, since about theology has been abandoned to or stolen by the politics (523 after C.). it is just a form of (sad) prohibition. It is above all "unscientific".

If there is already infinite intelligence, why can't we really find it? It
is not to be found in the objective world, and so it is hard for us as
beings fixated on objects and external circumstance to get in touch with it. It will come naturally to us as we get more in touch with the reality of us
being infinite consciousness.
Is ther life after death? Life of consciousness is already eternal.
Individuals are only different expressions of consciousness, not seperate
Why is there accelerating development? Because it lies in the nature of self-organizing universal intelligence to self-organize to self- organize
How can the human problems be solved? They needn't be, consciousness takes care of itself, and as soon as we see that, the apparent problems become
irrelevant. It is not luck that we survived that far, consciousness
self-regulates to make sure important intelligent structures surive.
If subjectivity is primary, why can't we simply transcend all physical
limits and make ourselves happy? The universe doesn't care about individual transcendence or happiness, it needs physical limits to help order itself in a consistent (non-dreamy) way, until it learns to trascend the limits (which requires, among other things, universal cooperative behaviour among humans). What is our individual part in all of this? Naturally learn to recognize that we as individuals are just a part of the whole that we really are, and through this, learn to finally relax into our true infinite consciousness and be really free. It isn't so important what we do, the things go the way
they do anyway.

And here, according to the machine's comp theory (AUDA) you might be rather true, but cross what can be communicated without making some non provable assumption clear. Or you should add something like "I hope that ...".

With comp, consciousness is fundamental, but not primitive. It is derivable from some intersection between truth, provability and consistency. Truth is not definable (by the machine) nor is consciousness.



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