On 2/1/2012 3:06 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 01 Feb 2012, at 16:46, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 2/1/2012 6:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
Hi Stephen,

On 31 Jan 2012, at 23:06, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 1/31/2012 3:03 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 31 Jan 2012, at 19:11, Stephen P. King wrote:



In Craig's defense I would like to point out that however trolling or postmodernist you might see his ideas, he is trying hard to think outside of the box that you guys are gyrating in like the ball in a game of Pong. How does science advance unless people are willing to contemplate alternative ideas?

I don't see any alternative idea or theory. When he says that qualia explains the universe, that fits with the proven consequences of comp, where quanta are case of qualia. He is not bad at introspection, he might grasp comp a little bit, but he does not try to submit a theory in the usual meaning of the terms. So we can't help.

Stephen, don't confuse comp, as used as a "pretext for not addressing the mind-body problem by materialist", and what we can already see from a formulation of the mind body problem when computationalism is taken seriously into account. This already leads to a rational alternative, if not reversal.

To be frank, you fail also to provide a theory, as your notion of "Existence" illustrates. Existence of what? You never answered.

Hi Bruno,

My my, are we in a snit of a mood! I am assuming a basic axiom: Existence exists. If this is difficult for you to grasp, please watch this lecture on Epistemology:


This did not help. Sorry. I am used to appreciate Ayn Rand, but progress have been made. Pointing on a playlist with 30 videos is unecessary distraction. If you have a point, you should try to make it.

As I am not as skilled in composing words as many others I was allowing the argument of some other people, that I agree with, to stand in the place of my own. You might take this as a sign that I lack understanding of the concepts but you would be mistaken.

I would not do that.

A person that is mute and armless can nevertheless have consistent thoughts.


BTW, I should not have to point out that we have gone through this before, but since I value your ideas I guess that I need to do it again, but unhappily so.

I have no ideas. Comp is as old as humanity, even if the discovery of the universal Turing machine changed everything. And this makes arithmetic (or hereditarily finite sets, or whatever first order specification of a universal system *is* a convenable TOE. The rest are definitions and theorems, and is the study of something much bigger than arithmetic (arithmetic seen from inside).

When you say "Existence exist", either I interpret it intuitively by "something exists" --- the non-nothing theory---and I hardly doubt it, or I interpret it as a reification of existence, like if it was a property or an object, and that would deserve a precise (and non standard) theoretical frame to be made precise. Without precision, an expression like "Existence exists" does not convey information, and seems like a category error.

It is a tautology, similar to A is A, but maximal is that is is not limited to specific instances such as what "something exists" conveys. What one states "something exists" that necessitates the possibility that "something else may not exist". I take Existence as primary and primitive and neutral.

I don't get it.

Many people have discussed this idea that Existence, in-itself, is primitive and neutral (has no properties or divisions). It is not original with me. For example, Bertrand Russell's discussion of neutral monism and Russell Standish's ToN explain it well.

What I ask is a scientific theory, by which I mean a first order logical theory about what you assume to exist, and then theorems justifying the other form that "existence" can take.

All that does not contradict itself and is thus necessarily possible exists, thus I claim that existence is necessary possibility.

That's an old idea in philosophy. It is the indexical idea that existence is consistence seen from inside. In first order logic it makes a lot of sense, given that consistence is equivalent with the existence of a model. And in AUDA, the necessity of the possibility of p, BDp, is the consequence of sigma_1 truth, and its leads to an arithmetical quantization. Here Bp is for (Bew(p) & Diamond("1=1")), and Dp is (Diamond(p) v Bew(f) 'relative consistency)). p is sigma_1.

Once you are using notion of necessity or possibility, being precise forces you to suggest in which modal logic you are working, and how you justify it. There are infinities of modal logics. UDA justifies the use of the self-reference modal logic, and their variants. Gödel's results (and Löb's one, and Solovay) don't let many possible choice for the ideally correct machines. The variant described above are the one needed to find the correct physic (correct with respect to comp, if you get UDA).

I don't know if comp is true or not, but comp makes theoretical computer science a lantern to find the key. It allows a mathematical formulation of many subproblems of the (comp) mind body problem.


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ <http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/%7Emarchal/>
Hi Bruno,

On these particulars we can agree. Our only disagreement is that you seem to consider that Arithmetic is at the same level as bare Existence and I see bare existence as neutral and that both logics (including arithmetic) and physicality are non-primitive. Have you noticed that I claim that the duality that I am considering vanishes at the level of Existence itself? This is because we cannot consider Existence to be partitioned without specifying a basis for the partition, in other words our ontological models have to start at our level of substitution and cannot remain coherent if we subtract out our existence as entities that can distinguish, for example, 0 from 1.



You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
For more options, visit this group at 

Reply via email to