On 15 Jun 2012, at 23:03, John Mikes wrote:
Bruno, you are an exception; "you think" and I think you are right.
BUT: listen to the "SCIENTISTS" who argue in statement-style (such
and such LAWS postulate, ...you cannot violate some other LAWS...
not to mention the "IT IS WELL KNOWN THAT" argumentations in
conventional scientific caves. Nobody admits agnosticism when it
comes to math-supported figments. Then everybody has a firm and
unshakable knowledge about his/her theory.
I was talking of course of ideal science. It is alas true that some
scientists confuse philosophy and science, and believes that science
has "proven" that "there is a primitive physical universe" and things
like that. But those are scientists in a world which has separate
science and religion, meaning that in religion they allow the lack of
rigor, and thus in science too, when they interpret it in term of
application to the notion of reality. But this does not concern the
ideal "science", or "greek sciences". It concerns the incorrect
practice of science in some obscurantist era. Keep in mind that I tend
to consider that science has not yet begun, except some flashes during
antiquity.
Bruno
I have to eliminate high blood pressure that does rise by statements
like:
There is my brain and my environment, what else gives? Not on this
list!
I like to go one tiny little step further than your agnosticism
"we don't believe" - yet accept a "belief system" within which one
thinks. It carries a vocabulary (semantics, if you like) and a
worldview - even if agnostic.
What I do not over-value is the 'human logic' (I hope I use it
myself) definitely NOT governing Nature, not even if the majority
observations in certain domains seem to identify(?) 'laws', said
sacrosanct in "science/technology"
As I say: A L M O ST .
Thanks for your remark
John M
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
John,
On 14 Jun 2012, at 23:05, John Mikes wrote:
Dear Stathis
let me try to explain myself in a less "1st p. vocabulary". As I
explained I carry an 'agnostic' worldview, because over the past
millennia the information what humanity gathered about "the world"
increased steadily and we have so far no indication of having
reached omniscience. So I believe you when asking out loud: "what
ELSE is there?" and I have no answer of course. 2 trivial e.g.,-s:
# Before Volta there was no hint to 'electrical' (whatever that is)
phenomena but after his observation a branch of developing physics
speaks a lot of such. #The Flat Earth was also a notion (even the
Bible speaks about "the 4 corners" of it) and newer information
developed a different cosmology over the past centuries.
And so on, why not getting new information in mentality questions
as well? or factors (even so far unknown 'domains') that may
influence whatever we do know/think/choose?
And may I throw back your term: the "choice" you ask about is a
PSEUDO - choice, not choosing from ANYTHING (haphazardly), but
within the given possibilities (potentials) - in the unlimited
complexity of which currently we know only a portion. More we know
than yesterday or 1000 - 10,000 years ago, but believably less than
we may learn hereafter. (I.e. in my agnosticism).
(And you left untouched my question about W H O is discussing
with YOUR brain - and how?)
John, I think science is always agnostic. We just don't know the
truth. What we can do is to propose and develop plausibility
feelings but nothing more. I think Stathis was just reasoning in
some determinist theory background, like QM-without-collapse or comp.
The art of science is the art of reasoning in theories, without ever
believing them. Only refuting them, sometimes, with luck.
Bruno
John Mikes Ph.D., D.Sc.
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 7:29 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <[email protected]
> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 6:55 AM, John Mikes <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Stathis, semantics is a fundamental principle as long as we 'talk
in wordly
> terms'. Did you get a letter from God Almighty confirming that
there is
> nothing more FOR DECISIONMAKING than your brain and your
------------- > environment? Sorry to denigrate a term within your
profession, but we -----
> know close to nothing about mentality, thinking in topical
terms, even ------> THAT DARN 'decisionmaking'.
> It may not be strictly deterministic, we MAY have SOME choice
(all these
> words from the 'pseudo' domain) but how impressive those (so far
unknowable)
> domains(?) or factors do influence "our brain(?)" has not been
known as of yesterday.
>
> (I am still hung up on your use of the number of people you are:
> "...if my actions are determined by my brain and my environment..."
> who is the 'you' discussing with 'your brain'? Are you compatible
with you?
> but that is an old hat).
Other than brain and environment, what else is there?
As for choice and determinism: I do exactly what I want to do, and if
I wanted do something else, I would do that. I consider that choice,
whether my behaviour is determined or random. In fact, I don't see
what "choice" could possibly mean if not this.
--
Stathis Papaioannou
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