Hi Craig Weinberg 

Indeed, we are all sinners.


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/8/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Craig Weinberg 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-08, 08:14:26
Subject: Re: fairness and sustainability




On Saturday, September 8, 2012 6:36:26 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:
Hi John Mikes 

Here's the dilemma: 

Unfortunately, any system -- with the exception of the oil-rich countries
(where fairness would seem to be hard to define) -- 
that is completely fair is unsustainable. Capitalism,
like it or not, is the only known way to increase a 
country's wealth. Fairness decreases a country's capacity
to grow. Darwin would agree.

Cuba and the former soviet union and now europe
are good examples. They all failed in trying to be completely fair
or are in the process of failing.

It sounds like you are defining wealth as capitalism in the first place. 
Historically, there have been other ways of increasing a country's wealth. 
Conquest. Agriculture. Slavery. There are examples of redistributive economies 
in Polynesia...the idea of 'the Big Man' who gains influence and glory by 
throwing the biggest parties for everyone. As the poverty of many capitalist 
economies today shows (aren't most sub-Saharan economies capitalist?), it is 
really the history of exploitation of natural and human resources (or being the 
target of exploitation thereof) which seems to relate to the ability of the 
nation to increase its wealth.

What is happening now though is that capitalist countries are seeing their 
capitalist elites become independent of the country. ExxonMobil makes history 
with its obscenely high profits while the country debates yet more cutbacks on 
basic human services. This isn't the fault of capitalism, since it only values 
economic considerations, if human beings overproduce their numbers and reduce 
their demand, the corporate leader is put in the position where if they don't 
exploit that condition, then somebody else will. Technology amplifies this. 
What globalization means is eventually we will have a tiny group of 
international insiders and a disposable population of potential employees all 
competing for the lowest possible wage. Capitalism is building glass bank 
towers that stay empty all night while more and more people sleep in the 
streets, prisons, squat in foreclosed houses, etc.

Unrestrained social Darwinism is not the only alternative to 'trying to be 
completely fair'. Parts of the Soviet Union and Cuba are doing much better than 
parts of New Orleans and Detroit. It's really very simplistic to try to draw a 
line from a single economic proposition and the complex reality of the fate of 
a nation. What would Cuba be like without the revolution? Maybe Monte Carlo, 
maybe Haiti...neither...both? It's all speculation. All I can see is that 
whatever we are doing in the US, is making everything worse - here and around 
the world. I see the quality of life stagnating and dropping for most people, 
for lack of money that is flowing into the bank accounts of people who have no 
way to tell the difference except in their imagination. 

Craig

 



Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net
9/8/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: John Mikes 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-07, 14:44:26
Subject: Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect


Brent, 
I believe there is a difference between (adj) 'fair' or 'unjust' and the (noun) 
'fairness', or 'consciousness'. 
While the nouns (IMO)? re not adequately identified the adverbs refer to the 
applied system of correspondence. 
E.g.: "Fair" to the unjust system. (I don't think we may use the opposite: 
"unjust" to a 'fair' system in our discussion). 
As I tried to explain in another post: the 'rich' consume MORE of the 
country-supplied services than the not-so-rich and pay less taxes (unfair and 
unjust). Certain big corporations also pay 'less' than the system would require 
(in all fairness - proverbially said) ordinarily. 
Semantix, OOH!
John M


On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 4:18 PM, meekerdb <meek...@verizon.net> wrote:

On 9/4/2012 1:12 PM, John Mikes wrote: 


It is a 'trap' to falsify the adequate taxing of the 'rich' as a leftist 
attempt to distributing richness. It does not include more than a requirement 
for THEM to pay their FAIR share - maybe more than the not-so-rich layers (e.g. 
higher use of transportation, foreign connections, financial means, etc. - all 
costing money to the country) in spite of their lower share in the present 
unjust? axation-scheme.
.. 


And PLEASE, Brent, do not even utter in econo-political discussion the word 
"FAIRNESS"!


So is it OK if I use "FAIR" and "unjust"?

Brent


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