On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:

>  Hi Craig Weinberg
>
> All evil and suffering are caused either by men and by natural
> catastrophe. Men have free will, so they can do evil.
> Nature must follow the laws of physics etc.
>
> The evil actions are referred to as under God's permissible will.
> But yes since God causes everything to happen, he must
> reluctantly cause and permit evil as well.  But don't forget
> that he also causes god, so as long as it isn't too far
> advanced, and God operates to enhance life, he (in
> the form of your fatih) can help cure the cancer.
>

Cancer is nature. Why can God help cure it but not violate the laws that
cause the conditions that lead to cancer?

Craig


>
>
> Leibniz also struggled with this problem as well as Augustine.
> Leibniz said that since God created the world an God is Good,
> the world he created is the best possible one. Augustine
> said that evil or suffering always results (somewhere, sometime)
> in the best result. Paul said that as well.
>

"Kim, like the great Gatsby, Kim believes in the green light, the orgiastic
future -- he believes in a magical universe of unpredictable spontaneous,
alive -- a universe where anything is possible. A universe of many gods,
often in conflict, so the paradox of an all-knowing, all-powerful god, who
nonetheless permits suffering, evil, and death does not arise. "We've got a
famine here, Osiris -- what happened?" "Well, you can't win them all, I'm
hustling myself." "Can you give us immortality?" "I can give you an
extension, maybe, take you as far as the first checkpoint -- you'll have to
make it from there on your own. Most of them don't, figure about one in a
million, and biologically speaking, that's very good odds."

 - William S. Burroughs


>
>
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
> 9/11/2012
> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
> so that everything could function."
>
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> *From:* Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>
> *Receiver:* everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
> *Time:* 2012-09-11, 08:37:39
> *Subject:* Re: Re: fairness and sustainability
>
>  Hi Roger,
>
> Do demons have free will? Or are the evil actions of people an involuntary
> gift from God? Is there another option?
>
> Craig
>
> On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 7:19:23 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:
>>
>>  Hi Bruno Marchal
>>
>>
>> That's fine. Although it is a bit out-dated an idea,
>> I conceive of the evil acting in evil people
>> metaphorically as demons.
>>
>>
>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
>> 9/11/2012
>> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
>> so that everything could function."
>>
>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
>> *From:* Bruno Marchal
>> *Receiver:* everything-list
>> *Time:* 2012-09-10, 10:26:30
>> *Subject:* Re: fairness and sustainability
>>
>>  Hi Roger,
>>
>>
>>  On 09 Sep 2012, at 12:48, Roger Clough wrote:
>>
>>  Marchal Hi Bruno
>>
>> By sin or evil I mean intentionally diminishing the life of others.
>>
>>
>> OK.
>>
>>
>>
>>  If you doubt that that is not the way of the world, you must not watch
>> the news.
>>
>>
>> I never doubt that, alas.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Evil is not an abstract word, it is very real, and it lives to whatever
>> extent in each of us.
>>
>>
>>
>> In two very different ways. In fantasy, with consent, and in act without
>> consent.
>>
>>  The good can and will never triumph on the bad, but it can reduce the
>> harm.
>>
>> The extent of evil in you is not the problem, the sin is in the evil act
>> that actually augment the harm of others.
>>
>> The evil is in all on us, you are right. But this does not make all
>> person a sinner. You became a sinner only if you actually sin (diminish the
>> life of others), intentionally,  or not, I am not "sure" but with some
>> degree or responsibility, relatively to different realities.
>>
>> The better you know the evil in you, the less surprising it is in
>> unexpected circumstances, making easier the self-control.
>>
>>
>> Some believe that "thinking bad things" is already a sin.  But you have
>> to think on bad things to say that, so it is a bit self-defeating.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
>> 9/9/2012
>> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
>> so that everything could function."
>>
>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
>> *From:* Bruno Marchal
>> *Receiver:* everything-list
>> *Time:* 2012-09-08, 13:54:23
>> *Subject:* Re: fairness and sustainability
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  On 08 Sep 2012, at 16:41, Roger Clough wrote:
>>
>>  Hi Bruno Marchal
>>
>> Indeed, we are all sinners.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Roger,
>>
>> Saying this can only dilute the responsibility and helps the "sinners".
>>
>> I am not sure at all we are all sinners, unless you are using a so weak
>> sense that it is making every baby already sinning.
>>
>> I am not sure about the notion of sin. It looks too much like an easy way
>> to explain suffering, and it makes many people feeling guilty for no reason
>> that they can see, and sometimes it can act as a self-prophecy: "given that
>> I have already sin why not sin again?
>>
>> I think that there is only one sin: hurting others without legitimate
>> concern.
>>
>> And most people don't sin, I think,
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
>> 9/8/2012
>> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
>> so that everything could function."
>>
>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
>> *From:* Bruno Marchal
>> *Receiver:* everything-list
>> *Time:* 2012-09-08, 08:37:30
>> *Subject:* Re: fairness and sustainability
>>
>>
>>  On 08 Sep 2012, at 12:35, Roger Clough wrote:
>>
>>  Hi John Mikes
>>
>> Here's the dilemma:
>>
>> Unfortunately, any system -- with the exception of the oil-rich countries
>> (where fairness would seem to be hard to define) --
>> that is completely fair is unsustainable. Capitalism,
>> like it or not, is the only known way to increase a
>> country's wealth. Fairness decreases a country's capacity
>> to grow. Darwin would agree.
>>
>> Cuba and the former soviet union and now europe
>> are good examples. They all failed in trying to be completely fair
>> or are in the process of failing.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think that capitalism + democracy is the most fair system.
>>
>> Today, unfortunately, capitalism has been perverted by minorities which
>> build money on fears, lies and catastrophes, and that is very bad.
>>
>> They are clever, and have succeeded in mixing the black and non black
>> money, so that the middle class and the banking systems have become
>> hostages.  Those liars are transforming the planet economy into a a
>> pyramidal con.
>>
>> Lying is part of nature, like cancers and diseases. Defending ourselves
>> against liars is part of nature too.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net
>> 9/8/2012
>> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
>> so that everything could function."
>>
>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
>> *From:* John Mikes
>> *Receiver:* everything-list
>> *Time:* 2012-09-07, 14:44:26
>> *Subject:* Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect
>>
>>   Brent,
>>  I believe there is a difference between (adj) 'fair' or 'unjust' and
>> the (noun) 'fairness', or 'consciousness'.
>> While the nouns (IMO)锟 re not adequately identified the adverbs refer to
>> the applied system of correspondence.
>> E.g.: "Fair" to the unjust system. (I don't think we may use the
>> opposite: "unjust" to a 'fair' system in our discussion).
>> As I tried to explain in another post: the 'rich' consume MORE of the
>> country-supplied services than the not-so-rich and pay less taxes (unfair
>> and unjust). Certain big corporations also pay 'less' than the system would
>> require
>> (*in all fairness* - proverbially said) ordinarily.
>> Semantix, OOH!
>>  John M
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 4:18 PM, meekerdb <meek...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>  On 9/4/2012 1:12 PM, John Mikes wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> **
>>> It is a 'trap' to falsify the adequate taxing of the 'rich' as a *leftist
>>> attempt to distributing richness*. It does not include more than a
>>> requirement for THEM to pay their FAIR share - maybe more than the
>>> not-so-rich layers (e.g. higher use of transportation, foreign connections,
>>> financial means, etc. - all costing money to the country) in spite of their
>>> lower share in the present unjust锟 axation-scheme.
>>> ...
>>>
>>> And PLEASE, Brent, do not even utter in econo-political discussion the
>>> word *"FAIRNESS"!*
>>>
>>>
>>> So is it OK if I use "FAIR" and "unjust"?
>>>
>>> Brent
>>>
>>>
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