Hi Roger,

Do demons have free will? Or are the evil actions of people an involuntary 
gift from God? Is there another option?

Craig

On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 7:19:23 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:
>
>  Hi Bruno Marchal 
>  
>  
> That's fine. Although it is a bit out-dated an idea,
> I conceive of the evil acting in evil people
> metaphorically as demons.   
>  
>  
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net <javascript:>
> 9/11/2012 
> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
> so that everything could function."
>
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> *From:* Bruno Marchal <javascript:> 
> *Receiver:* everything-list <javascript:> 
> *Time:* 2012-09-10, 10:26:30
> *Subject:* Re: fairness and sustainability
>
>  Hi Roger, 
>
>
>  On 09 Sep 2012, at 12:48, Roger Clough wrote:
>
>  Marchal Hi Bruno 
>  
> By sin or evil I mean intentionally diminishing the life of others.
>
>
> OK. 
>
>
>
>  If you doubt that that is not the way of the world, you must not watch 
> the news.
>
>
> I never doubt that, alas. 
>
>
>
>  Evil is not an abstract word, it is very real, and it lives to whatever 
> extent in each of us.
>
>
>
> In two very different ways. In fantasy, with consent, and in act without 
> consent.
>
>  The good can and will never triumph on the bad, but it can reduce the 
> harm.
>
> The extent of evil in you is not the problem, the sin is in the evil act 
> that actually augment the harm of others.
>
> The evil is in all on us, you are right. But this does not make all person 
> a sinner. You became a sinner only if you actually sin (diminish the life 
> of others), intentionally,  or not, I am not "sure" but with some degree or 
> responsibility, relatively to different realities.
>
> The better you know the evil in you, the less surprising it is in 
> unexpected circumstances, making easier the self-control.
>
>
> Some believe that "thinking bad things" is already a sin.  But you have to 
> think on bad things to say that, so it is a bit self-defeating. 
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>   
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net <javascript:>
> 9/9/2012 
> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
> so that everything could function."
>
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> *From:* Bruno Marchal <javascript:> 
> *Receiver:* everything-list <javascript:> 
> *Time:* 2012-09-08, 13:54:23
> *Subject:* Re: fairness and sustainability
>
>  
>
>
>  On 08 Sep 2012, at 16:41, Roger Clough wrote:
>
>  Hi Bruno Marchal 
>  
> Indeed, we are all sinners.
>
>
>
>
> Hi Roger, 
>
> Saying this can only dilute the responsibility and helps the "sinners".
>
> I am not sure at all we are all sinners, unless you are using a so weak 
> sense that it is making every baby already sinning.
>
> I am not sure about the notion of sin. It looks too much like an easy way 
> to explain suffering, and it makes many people feeling guilty for no reason 
> that they can see, and sometimes it can act as a self-prophecy: "given that 
> I have already sin why not sin again?
>
> I think that there is only one sin: hurting others without legitimate 
> concern.
>
> And most people don't sin, I think, 
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>   
>  
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net <javascript:>
> 9/8/2012 
> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
> so that everything could function."
>
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> *From:* Bruno Marchal <javascript:> 
> *Receiver:* everything-list <javascript:> 
> *Time:* 2012-09-08, 08:37:30
> *Subject:* Re: fairness and sustainability
>
>  
>  On 08 Sep 2012, at 12:35, Roger Clough wrote:
>
>  Hi John Mikes 
>  
> Here's the dilemma: 
>  
> Unfortunately, any system -- with the exception of the oil-rich countries
> (where fairness would seem to be hard to define) -- 
> that is completely fair is unsustainable. Capitalism,
> like it or not, is the only known way to increase a 
> country's wealth. Fairness decreases a country's capacity
> to grow. Darwin would agree.
>  
> Cuba and the former soviet union and now europe
> are good examples. They all failed in trying to be completely fair
> or are in the process of failing.
>
>
>
> I think that capitalism + democracy is the most fair system.
>
> Today, unfortunately, capitalism has been perverted by minorities which 
> build money on fears, lies and catastrophes, and that is very bad.
>
> They are clever, and have succeeded in mixing the black and non black 
> money, so that the middle class and the banking systems have become 
> hostages.  Those liars are transforming the planet economy into a a 
> pyramidal con.
>
> Lying is part of nature, like cancers and diseases. Defending ourselves 
> against liars is part of nature too.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   
>  
> Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net <javascript:>
> 9/8/2012 
> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
> so that everything could function."
>
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> *From:* John Mikes <javascript:> 
> *Receiver:* everything-list <javascript:> 
> *Time:* 2012-09-07, 14:44:26
> *Subject:* Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect
>
>   Brent, 
>  I believe there is a difference between (adj) 'fair' or 'unjust' and the 
> (noun) 'fairness', or 'consciousness'. 
> While the nouns (IMO)锟�re not adequately identified the adverbs refer to 
> the applied system of correspondence. 
> E.g.: "Fair" to the unjust system. (I don't think we may use the opposite: 
> "unjust" to a 'fair' system in our discussion). 
> As I tried to explain in another post: the 'rich' consume MORE of the 
> country-supplied services than the not-so-rich and pay less taxes (unfair 
> and unjust). Certain big corporations also pay 'less' than the system would 
> require 
> (*in all fairness* - proverbially said) ordinarily. 
> Semantix, OOH!
>  John M
>
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 4:18 PM, meekerdb <meek...@verizon.net<javascript:>
> > wrote:
>
>>  On 9/4/2012 1:12 PM, John Mikes wrote: 
>>
>>
>> **
>> It is a 'trap' to falsify the adequate taxing of the 'rich' as a *leftist 
>> attempt to distributing richness*. It does not include more than a 
>> requirement for THEM to pay their FAIR share - maybe more than the 
>> not-so-rich layers (e.g. higher use of transportation, foreign connections, 
>> financial means, etc. - all costing money to the country) in spite of their 
>> lower share in the present unjust锟�axation-scheme.
>> ... 
>>
>> And PLEASE, Brent, do not even utter in econo-political discussion the 
>> word *"FAIRNESS"!*
>>
>>
>> So is it OK if I use "FAIR" and "unjust"?
>>
>> Brent
>>
>>  
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