Hi Bruno Marchal 

Two horns ?  Metaphorically, yes. But real, actual, and an agent,
even though a metaphor. The Prince of Darkness, the Ruler of our earthly 
domain. 
That is a far more useful description than attributing evil to some pscyhiatric
condition or fate or whatever.

Evil generallly seems to act personally-- as an agent. And more often than
not, to go after good people, Job being a prime example. Jesus another.
Ten of the twelve apostles also died violent, painful deaths. 
Another example would be the shocking number of incidences
of children or young women abducted, raped and murdered.

A serial killer would be a good example of such a demon-possessed
individual. Crime investigators find that he has no other motive than to kill.



Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/12/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-11, 12:29:16
Subject: Re: fairness and sustainability




On 11 Sep 2012, at 13:18, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Bruno Marchal 


That's fine. Although it is a bit out-dated an idea,
I conceive of the evil acting in evil people
metaphorically as demons.   


With two horns ?


:)




Many people reports seeing daemons, and sort of daemons, on different 
psychedelics. Those daemons might be "just"  interpretation, made by the 
neocortex, through culture and life-memory, of antic subroutines, charged of 
relative content, operating around de amygdala, who knows? 


Plausibly, with the comp hyp., they might already consist in sophisticated 
universal subroutines of the mind processing, and be common to very large 
collection of L bian machines or numbers.


"demon" is a cute word, but be careful not to demonized the demon.


 if you act badly, knowingly, you sin (knowingly), the inspiring demon does 
not, and can't be used to attenuate the responsibility. 


The demons doing their job in hell, are there willingly, --I mean they are not 
punished. 
God love demons. It is very practical to test the creature for the heaven/hell 
question.


Here I am not working in just comp, but with a momentary possible consistent 
christian extension. It does not make Satan himself into a friend, necessarily, 
as you can still (re)define Satan, by what makes you do the bad act, but in 
that case, you are Satan, when you sin (act badly).


I don't know. Theodicy is the most complex part of theology. 
With comp, it can only be a sequence of harder and harder open questions (in 
arithmetic), none having really normative consequences except some sort of open 
mindedness and interrogative attitude towards the unknown and the unknowns.


Bruno




Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/11/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-10, 10:26:30
Subject: Re: fairness and sustainability


Hi Roger, 




On 09 Sep 2012, at 12:48, Roger Clough wrote:


Marchal Hi Bruno 

By sin or evil I mean intentionally diminishing the life of others.


OK. 






If you doubt that that is not the way of the world, you must not watch the news.


I never doubt that, alas. 






Evil is not an abstract word, it is very real, and it lives to whatever extent 
in each of us.




In two very different ways. In fantasy, with consent, and in act without 
consent.


 The good can and will never triumph on the bad, but it can reduce the harm.


The extent of evil in you is not the problem, the sin is in the evil act that 
actually augment the harm of others.


The evil is in all on us, you are right. But this does not make all person a 
sinner. You became a sinner only if you actually sin (diminish the life of 
others), intentionally,  or not, I am not "sure" but with some degree or 
responsibility, relatively to different realities.


The better you know the evil in you, the less surprising it is in unexpected 
circumstances, making easier the self-control.




Some believe that "thinking bad things" is already a sin.  But you have to 
think on bad things to say that, so it is a bit self-defeating. 


Bruno











Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/9/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-08, 13:54:23
Subject: Re: fairness and sustainability








On 08 Sep 2012, at 16:41, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Bruno Marchal 

Indeed, we are all sinners.






Hi Roger, 


Saying this can only dilute the responsibility and helps the "sinners".


I am not sure at all we are all sinners, unless you are using a so weak sense 
that it is making every baby already sinning.


I am not sure about the notion of sin. It looks too much like an easy way to 
explain suffering, and it makes many people feeling guilty for no reason that 
they can see, and sometimes it can act as a self-prophecy: "given that I have 
already sin why not sin again?


I think that there is only one sin: hurting others without legitimate concern.


And most people don't sin, I think, 


Bruno








Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/8/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-08, 08:37:30
Subject: Re: fairness and sustainability




On 08 Sep 2012, at 12:35, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi John Mikes 

Here's the dilemma: 

Unfortunately, any system -- with the exception of the oil-rich countries
(where fairness would seem to be hard to define) -- 
that is completely fair is unsustainable. Capitalism,
like it or not, is the only known way to increase a 
country's wealth. Fairness decreases a country's capacity
to grow. Darwin would agree.

Cuba and the former soviet union and now europe
are good examples. They all failed in trying to be completely fair
or are in the process of failing.




I think that capitalism + democracy is the most fair system.


Today, unfortunately, capitalism has been perverted by minorities which build 
money on fears, lies and catastrophes, and that is very bad.


They are clever, and have succeeded in mixing the black and non black money, so 
that the middle class and the banking systems have become hostages.  Those 
liars are transforming the planet economy into a a pyramidal con.


Lying is part of nature, like cancers and diseases. Defending ourselves against 
liars is part of nature too.


Bruno














Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/8/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: John Mikes 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-09-07, 14:44:26
Subject: Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect


Brent, 
I believe there is a difference between (adj) 'fair' or 'unjust' and the (noun) 
'fairness', or 'consciousness'. 
While the nouns (IMO)?re not adequately identified the adverbs refer to the 
applied system of correspondence. 
E.g.: "Fair" to the unjust system. (I don't think we may use the opposite: 
"unjust" to a 'fair' system in our discussion). 
As I tried to explain in another post: the 'rich' consume MORE of the 
country-supplied services than the not-so-rich and pay less taxes (unfair and 
unjust). Certain big corporations also pay 'less' than the system would require 
(in all fairness - proverbially said) ordinarily. 
Semantix, OOH!
John M


On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 4:18 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

On 9/4/2012 1:12 PM, John Mikes wrote: 


It is a 'trap' to falsify the adequate taxing of the 'rich' as a leftist 
attempt to distributing richness. It does not include more than a requirement 
for THEM to pay their FAIR share - maybe more than the not-so-rich layers (e.g. 
higher use of transportation, foreign connections, financial means, etc. - all 
costing money to the country) in spite of their lower share in the present 
unjust?axation-scheme.
.. 


And PLEASE, Brent, do not even utter in econo-political discussion the word 
"FAIRNESS"!


So is it OK if I use "FAIR" and "unjust"?

Brent




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