On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 11 Sep 2012, at 15:30, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Roger Clough <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Craig Weinberg >> >> All evil and suffering are caused either by men and by natural >> catastrophe. Men have free will, so they can do evil. >> Nature must follow the laws of physics etc. >> >> The evil actions are referred to as under God's permissible will. >> But yes since God causes everything to happen, he must >> reluctantly cause and permit evil as well. But don't forget >> that he also causes god, so as long as it isn't too far >> advanced, and God operates to enhance life, he (in >> the form of your fatih) can help cure the cancer. >> > > Cancer is nature. Why can God help cure it but not violate the laws that > cause the conditions that lead to cancer? > > > All the evidences are that God created cannabis to cure cancer. Or if you > prefer there has been a plausible coevolution of mammals and plants, until > big pharma decided it can do better than the millions years experience of > grandma. > > I oversimplified to be short, hope you get the idea. The case of pharma is > a case where "aritificial medication" has been imposed through lies, to > some extent. > > Cancer might be a result of the human lack of rigor in the human science, > notably due in part to that separation between science and religion. > > Bruno > > > It is impossible to overstate the importance of cannabis and hemp to the future of civilization. From what I understand, the ugliness of the prohibition in the US is mainly financed by law enforcement lobbying, private prison operators, and probably the drug cartels themselves. I don't know if even big alcohol and tobacco really opposes it anymore and certainly public opinion has long since moved on from any legitimate fears of repercussions from decriminalization. I have seen articles both on the cancer benefits and others on harmful effects. I can't tell which might be true, but my hunch is that they are both overstated. For some cannabis is a lifesaver, for some it's great, for some it's not so great, but overall its only real danger results directly from its prohibition. Craig > > Craig > > >> >> >> Leibniz also struggled with this problem as well as Augustine. >> Leibniz said that since God created the world an God is Good, >> the world he created is the best possible one. Augustine >> said that evil or suffering always results (somewhere, sometime) >> in the best result. Paul said that as well. >> > > "Kim, like the great Gatsby, Kim believes in the green light, the > orgiastic future -- he believes in a magical universe of unpredictable > spontaneous, alive -- a universe where anything is possible. A universe of > many gods, often in conflict, so the paradox of an all-knowing, > all-powerful god, who nonetheless permits suffering, evil, and death does > not arise. "We've got a famine here, Osiris -- what happened?" "Well, you > can't win them all, I'm hustling myself." "Can you give us immortality?" "I > can give you an extension, maybe, take you as far as the first checkpoint > -- you'll have to make it from there on your own. Most of them don't, > figure about one in a million, and biologically speaking, that's very good > odds." > > - William S. Burroughs > > >> >> >> Roger Clough, [email protected] >> 9/11/2012 >> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him >> so that everything could function." >> >> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >> *From:* Craig Weinberg <[email protected]> >> *Receiver:* everything-list <[email protected]> >> *Time:* 2012-09-11, 08:37:39 >> *Subject:* Re: Re: fairness and sustainability >> >> Hi Roger, >> >> Do demons have free will? Or are the evil actions of people an >> involuntary gift from God? Is there another option? >> >> Craig >> >> On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 7:19:23 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bruno Marchal >>> >>> >>> That's fine. Although it is a bit out-dated an idea, >>> I conceive of the evil acting in evil people >>> metaphorically as demons. >>> >>> >>> Roger Clough, [email protected] >>> 9/11/2012 >>> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him >>> so that everything could function." >>> >>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >>> *From:* Bruno Marchal >>> *Receiver:* everything-list >>> *Time:* 2012-09-10, 10:26:30 >>> *Subject:* Re: fairness and sustainability >>> >>> Hi Roger, >>> >>> >>> On 09 Sep 2012, at 12:48, Roger Clough wrote: >>> >>> Marchal Hi Bruno >>> >>> By sin or evil I mean intentionally diminishing the life of others. >>> >>> >>> OK. >>> >>> >>> >>> If you doubt that that is not the way of the world, you must not watch >>> the news. >>> >>> >>> I never doubt that, alas. >>> >>> >>> >>> Evil is not an abstract word, it is very real, and it lives to >>> whatever extent in each of us. >>> >>> >>> >>> In two very different ways. In fantasy, with consent, and in act without >>> consent. >>> >>> The good can and will never triumph on the bad, but it can reduce the >>> harm. >>> >>> The extent of evil in you is not the problem, the sin is in the evil act >>> that actually augment the harm of others. >>> >>> The evil is in all on us, you are right. But this does not make all >>> person a sinner. You became a sinner only if you actually sin (diminish the >>> life of others), intentionally, or not, I am not "sure" but with some >>> degree or responsibility, relatively to different realities. >>> >>> The better you know the evil in you, the less surprising it is in >>> unexpected circumstances, making easier the self-control. >>> >>> >>> Some believe that "thinking bad things" is already a sin. But you have >>> to think on bad things to say that, so it is a bit self-defeating. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Roger Clough, [email protected] >>> 9/9/2012 >>> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him >>> so that everything could function." >>> >>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >>> *From:* Bruno Marchal >>> *Receiver:* everything-list >>> *Time:* 2012-09-08, 13:54:23 >>> *Subject:* Re: fairness and sustainability >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 08 Sep 2012, at 16:41, Roger Clough wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bruno Marchal >>> >>> Indeed, we are all sinners. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Roger, >>> >>> Saying this can only dilute the responsibility and helps the "sinners". >>> >>> I am not sure at all we are all sinners, unless you are using a so weak >>> sense that it is making every baby already sinning. >>> >>> I am not sure about the notion of sin. It looks too much like an easy >>> way to explain suffering, and it makes many people feeling guilty for no >>> reason that they can see, and sometimes it can act as a self-prophecy: >>> "given that I have already sin why not sin again? >>> >>> I think that there is only one sin: hurting others without legitimate >>> concern. >>> >>> And most people don't sin, I think, >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Roger Clough, [email protected] >>> 9/8/2012 >>> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him >>> so that everything could function." >>> >>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >>> *From:* Bruno Marchal >>> *Receiver:* everything-list >>> *Time:* 2012-09-08, 08:37:30 >>> *Subject:* Re: fairness and sustainability >>> >>> >>> On 08 Sep 2012, at 12:35, Roger Clough wrote: >>> >>> Hi John Mikes >>> >>> Here's the dilemma: >>> >>> Unfortunately, any system -- with the exception of the oil-rich countries >>> (where fairness would seem to be hard to define) -- >>> that is completely fair is unsustainable. Capitalism, >>> like it or not, is the only known way to increase a >>> country's wealth. Fairness decreases a country's capacity >>> to grow. Darwin would agree. >>> >>> Cuba and the former soviet union and now europe >>> are good examples. They all failed in trying to be completely fair >>> or are in the process of failing. >>> >>> >>> >>> I think that capitalism + democracy is the most fair system. >>> >>> Today, unfortunately, capitalism has been perverted by minorities which >>> build money on fears, lies and catastrophes, and that is very bad. >>> >>> They are clever, and have succeeded in mixing the black and non black >>> money, so that the middle class and the banking systems have become >>> hostages. Those liars are transforming the planet economy into a a >>> pyramidal con. >>> >>> Lying is part of nature, like cancers and diseases. Defending ourselves >>> against liars is part of nature too. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Roger Clough, [email protected] >>> 9/8/2012 >>> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him >>> so that everything could function." >>> >>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >>> *From:* John Mikes >>> *Receiver:* everything-list >>> *Time:* 2012-09-07, 14:44:26 >>> *Subject:* Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect >>> >>> Brent, >>> I believe there is a difference between (adj) 'fair' or 'unjust' and >>> the (noun) 'fairness', or 'consciousness'. >>> While the nouns (IMO)锟 re not adequately identified the adverbs refer to >>> the applied system of correspondence. >>> E.g.: "Fair" to the unjust system. (I don't think we may use the >>> opposite: "unjust" to a 'fair' system in our discussion). >>> As I tried to explain in another post: the 'rich' consume MORE of the >>> country-supplied services than the not-so-rich and pay less taxes (unfair >>> and unjust). Certain big corporations also pay 'less' than the system would >>> require >>> (*in all fairness* - proverbially said) ordinarily. >>> Semantix, OOH! >>> John M >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 4:18 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> On 9/4/2012 1:12 PM, John Mikes wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> ** >>>> It is a 'trap' to falsify the adequate taxing of the 'rich' as a *leftist >>>> attempt to distributing richness*. It does not include more than a >>>> requirement for THEM to pay their FAIR share - maybe more than the >>>> not-so-rich layers (e.g. higher use of transportation, foreign connections, >>>> financial means, etc. - all costing money to the country) in spite of their >>>> lower share in the present unjust锟 axation-scheme. >>>> ... >>>> >>>> And PLEASE, Brent, do not even utter in econo-political discussion the >>>> word *"FAIRNESS"!* >>>> >>>> >>>> So is it OK if I use "FAIR" and "unjust"? >>>> >>>> Brent >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.**com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@** >>>> googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>>> group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> >>>> . >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.**com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@** >>> googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>> group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> >>> . >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.**com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@** >>> googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>> group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> >>> . >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~**marchal/ <http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.**com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@** >>> googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>> group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> >>> . >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~**marchal/ <http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.**com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@** >>> googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>> group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> >>> . >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~**marchal/ <http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/Y3tjf7JSNNwJ. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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