Hi Craig Weinberg If someone they love dies of cancer, their survivors sometimes say it was God's will.
I don't think so. God didn't kill the patient, the cancer did. God fights for life, which is what goodness aims for. Cancer aims for death. So a battle goes on in every cancer patient. Another way to look at this is that Adam and Eve sinned and were cursed by God (who also curssed the earth) cast out of Eden. So we all are sinners, all have some corruption in us to begin with. Cancer just causes that to grow. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function." ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-11, 09:30:13 Subject: Re: Why bad things can happen to anybody, good or bad. On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg All evil and suffering are caused either by men and by natural catastrophe. Men have free will, so they can do evil. Nature must follow the laws of physics etc. The evil actions are referred to as under God's permissible will. But yes since God causes everything to happen, he must reluctantly cause and permit evil as well. But don't forget that he also causes god, so as long as it isn't too far advanced, and God operates to enhance life, he (in the form of your fatih) can help cure the cancer. Cancer is nature. Why can God help cure it but not violate the laws that cause the conditions that lead to cancer? Craig Leibniz also struggled with this problem as well as Augustine. Leibniz said that since God created the world an God is Good, the world he created is the best possible one. Augustine said that evil or suffering always results (somewhere, sometime) in the best result. Paul said that as well. "Kim, like the great Gatsby, Kim believes in the green light, the orgiastic future -- he believes in a magical universe of unpredictable spontaneous, alive -- a universe where anything is possible. A universe of many gods, often in conflict, so the paradox of an all-knowing, all-powerful god, who nonetheless permits suffering, evil, and death does not arise. "We've got a famine here, Osiris -- what happened?" "Well, you can't win them all, I'm hustling myself." "Can you give us immortality?" "I can give you an extension, maybe, take you as far as the first checkpoint -- you'll have to make it from there on your own. Most of them don't, figure about one in a million, and biologically speaking, that's very good odds." - William S. Burroughs Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function." ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-11, 08:37:39 Subject: Re: Re: fairness and sustainability Hi Roger, Do demons have free will? Or are the evil actions of people an involuntary gift from God? Is there another option? Craig On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 7:19:23 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal That's fine. Although it is a bit out-dated an idea, I conceive of the evil acting in evil people metaphorically as demons. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function." ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-10, 10:26:30 Subject: Re: fairness and sustainability Hi Roger, On 09 Sep 2012, at 12:48, Roger Clough wrote: Marchal Hi Bruno By sin or evil I mean intentionally diminishing the life of others. OK. If you doubt that that is not the way of the world, you must not watch the news. I never doubt that, alas. Evil is not an abstract word, it is very real, and it lives to whatever extent in each of us. In two very different ways. In fantasy, with consent, and in act without consent. The good can and will never triumph on the bad, but it can reduce the harm. The extent of evil in you is not the problem, the sin is in the evil act that actually augment the harm of others. The evil is in all on us, you are right. But this does not make all person a sinner. You became a sinner only if you actually sin (diminish the life of others), intentionally, or not, I am not "sure" but with some degree or responsibility, relatively to different realities. The better you know the evil in you, the less surprising it is in unexpected circumstances, making easier the self-control. Some believe that "thinking bad things" is already a sin. But you have to think on bad things to say that, so it is a bit self-defeating. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/9/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function." ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-08, 13:54:23 Subject: Re: fairness and sustainability On 08 Sep 2012, at 16:41, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Indeed, we are all sinners. Hi Roger, Saying this can only dilute the responsibility and helps the "sinners". I am not sure at all we are all sinners, unless you are using a so weak sense that it is making every baby already sinning. I am not sure about the notion of sin. It looks too much like an easy way to explain suffering, and it makes many people feeling guilty for no reason that they can see, and sometimes it can act as a self-prophecy: "given that I have already sin why not sin again? I think that there is only one sin: hurting others without legitimate concern. And most people don't sin, I think, Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/8/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function." ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-08, 08:37:30 Subject: Re: fairness and sustainability On 08 Sep 2012, at 12:35, Roger Clough wrote: Hi John Mikes Here's the dilemma: Unfortunately, any system -- with the exception of the oil-rich countries (where fairness would seem to be hard to define) -- that is completely fair is unsustainable. Capitalism, like it or not, is the only known way to increase a country's wealth. Fairness decreases a country's capacity to grow. Darwin would agree. Cuba and the former soviet union and now europe are good examples. They all failed in trying to be completely fair or are in the process of failing. I think that capitalism + democracy is the most fair system. Today, unfortunately, capitalism has been perverted by minorities which build money on fears, lies and catastrophes, and that is very bad. They are clever, and have succeeded in mixing the black and non black money, so that the middle class and the banking systems have become hostages. Those liars are transforming the planet economy into a a pyramidal con. Lying is part of nature, like cancers and diseases. Defending ourselves against liars is part of nature too. Bruno Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net 9/8/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function." ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: John Mikes Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-07, 14:44:26 Subject: Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect Brent, I believe there is a difference between (adj) 'fair' or 'unjust' and the (noun) 'fairness', or 'consciousness'. While the nouns (IMO)? re not adequately identified the adverbs refer to the applied system of correspondence. E.g.: "Fair" to the unjust system. (I don't think we may use the opposite: "unjust" to a 'fair' system in our discussion). As I tried to explain in another post: the 'rich' consume MORE of the country-supplied services than the not-so-rich and pay less taxes (unfair and unjust). Certain big corporations also pay 'less' than the system would require (in all fairness - proverbially said) ordinarily. Semantix, OOH! John M On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 4:18 PM, meekerdb <meek...@verizon.net> wrote: On 9/4/2012 1:12 PM, John Mikes wrote: It is a 'trap' to falsify the adequate taxing of the 'rich' as a leftist attempt to distributing richness. It does not include more than a requirement for THEM to pay their FAIR share - maybe more than the not-so-rich layers (e.g. higher use of transportation, foreign connections, financial means, etc. - all costing money to the country) in spite of their lower share in the present unjust? axation-scheme. .. And PLEASE, Brent, do not even utter in econo-political discussion the word "FAIRNESS"! So is it OK if I use "FAIR" and "unjust"? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. 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