On 11 Sep 2012, at 15:30, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Roger Clough <[email protected]>
wrote:
Hi Craig Weinberg
All evil and suffering are caused either by men and by natural
catastrophe. Men have free will, so they can do evil.
Nature must follow the laws of physics etc.
The evil actions are referred to as under God's permissible will.
But yes since God causes everything to happen, he must
reluctantly cause and permit evil as well. But don't forget
that he also causes god, so as long as it isn't too far
advanced, and God operates to enhance life, he (in
the form of your fatih) can help cure the cancer.
Cancer is nature. Why can God help cure it but not violate the laws
that cause the conditions that lead to cancer?
All the evidences are that God created cannabis to cure cancer. Or if
you prefer there has been a plausible coevolution of mammals and
plants, until big pharma decided it can do better than the millions
years experience of grandma.
I oversimplified to be short, hope you get the idea. The case of
pharma is a case where "aritificial medication" has been imposed
through lies, to some extent.
Cancer might be a result of the human lack of rigor in the human
science, notably due in part to that separation between science and
religion.
Bruno
Craig
Leibniz also struggled with this problem as well as Augustine.
Leibniz said that since God created the world an God is Good,
the world he created is the best possible one. Augustine
said that evil or suffering always results (somewhere, sometime)
in the best result. Paul said that as well.
"Kim, like the great Gatsby, Kim believes in the green light, the
orgiastic future -- he believes in a magical universe of
unpredictable spontaneous, alive -- a universe where anything is
possible. A universe of many gods, often in conflict, so the paradox
of an all-knowing, all-powerful god, who nonetheless permits
suffering, evil, and death does not arise. "We've got a famine here,
Osiris -- what happened?" "Well, you can't win them all, I'm
hustling myself." "Can you give us immortality?" "I can give you an
extension, maybe, take you as far as the first checkpoint -- you'll
have to make it from there on your own. Most of them don't, figure
about one in a million, and biologically speaking, that's very good
odds."
- William S. Burroughs
Roger Clough, [email protected]
9/11/2012
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Craig Weinberg
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-09-11, 08:37:39
Subject: Re: Re: fairness and sustainability
Hi Roger,
Do demons have free will? Or are the evil actions of people an
involuntary gift from God? Is there another option?
Craig
On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 7:19:23 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal
That's fine. Although it is a bit out-dated an idea,
I conceive of the evil acting in evil people
metaphorically as demons.
Roger Clough, [email protected]
9/11/2012
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-09-10, 10:26:30
Subject: Re: fairness and sustainability
Hi Roger,
On 09 Sep 2012, at 12:48, Roger Clough wrote:
Marchal Hi Bruno
By sin or evil I mean intentionally diminishing the life of others.
OK.
If you doubt that that is not the way of the world, you must not
watch the news.
I never doubt that, alas.
Evil is not an abstract word, it is very real, and it lives to
whatever extent in each of us.
In two very different ways. In fantasy, with consent, and in act
without consent.
The good can and will never triumph on the bad, but it can reduce
the harm.
The extent of evil in you is not the problem, the sin is in the evil
act that actually augment the harm of others.
The evil is in all on us, you are right. But this does not make all
person a sinner. You became a sinner only if you actually sin
(diminish the life of others), intentionally, or not, I am not
"sure" but with some degree or responsibility, relatively to
different realities.
The better you know the evil in you, the less surprising it is in
unexpected circumstances, making easier the self-control.
Some believe that "thinking bad things" is already a sin. But you
have to think on bad things to say that, so it is a bit self-
defeating.
Bruno
Roger Clough, [email protected]
9/9/2012
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-09-08, 13:54:23
Subject: Re: fairness and sustainability
On 08 Sep 2012, at 16:41, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal
Indeed, we are all sinners.
Hi Roger,
Saying this can only dilute the responsibility and helps the
"sinners".
I am not sure at all we are all sinners, unless you are using a so
weak sense that it is making every baby already sinning.
I am not sure about the notion of sin. It looks too much like an
easy way to explain suffering, and it makes many people feeling
guilty for no reason that they can see, and sometimes it can act as
a self-prophecy: "given that I have already sin why not sin again?
I think that there is only one sin: hurting others without
legitimate concern.
And most people don't sin, I think,
Bruno
Roger Clough, [email protected]
9/8/2012
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-09-08, 08:37:30
Subject: Re: fairness and sustainability
On 08 Sep 2012, at 12:35, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi John Mikes
Here's the dilemma:
Unfortunately, any system -- with the exception of the oil-rich
countries
(where fairness would seem to be hard to define) --
that is completely fair is unsustainable. Capitalism,
like it or not, is the only known way to increase a
country's wealth. Fairness decreases a country's capacity
to grow. Darwin would agree.
Cuba and the former soviet union and now europe
are good examples. They all failed in trying to be completely fair
or are in the process of failing.
I think that capitalism + democracy is the most fair system.
Today, unfortunately, capitalism has been perverted by minorities
which build money on fears, lies and catastrophes, and that is
very bad.
They are clever, and have succeeded in mixing the black and non
black money, so that the middle class and the banking systems have
become hostages. Those liars are transforming the planet economy
into a a pyramidal con.
Lying is part of nature, like cancers and diseases. Defending
ourselves against liars is part of nature too.
Bruno
Roger Clough, [email protected]
9/8/2012
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: John Mikes
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-09-07, 14:44:26
Subject: Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect
Brent,
I believe there is a difference between (adj) 'fair' or 'unjust'
and the (noun) 'fairness', or 'consciousness'.
While the nouns (IMO)锟 re not adequately identified the adverbs
refer to the applied system of correspondence.
E.g.: "Fair" to the unjust system. (I don't think we may use the
opposite: "unjust" to a 'fair' system in our discussion).
As I tried to explain in another post: the 'rich' consume MORE of
the country-supplied services than the not-so-rich and pay less
taxes (unfair and unjust). Certain big corporations also pay
'less' than the system would require
(in all fairness - proverbially said) ordinarily.
Semantix, OOH!
John M
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 4:18 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 9/4/2012 1:12 PM, John Mikes wrote:
It is a 'trap' to falsify the adequate taxing of the 'rich' as a
leftist attempt to distributing richness. It does not include
more than a requirement for THEM to pay their FAIR share - maybe
more than the not-so-rich layers (e.g. higher use of
transportation, foreign connections, financial means, etc. - all
costing money to the country) in spite of their lower share in
the present unjust锟 axation-scheme.
...
And PLEASE, Brent, do not even utter in econo-political
discussion the word "FAIRNESS"!
So is it OK if I use "FAIR" and "unjust"?
Brent
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-
[email protected].
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-
[email protected].
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-
[email protected].
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-
[email protected].
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-
[email protected].
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/Y3tjf7JSNNwJ
.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]
.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]
.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]
.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[email protected].
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
