On 07 Oct 2012, at 14:17, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi John Clark
Unless computers can deal with inextended objects such as
mind and experience, they cannot be conscious.
Consciousness is direct experience, computers can only deal in
descriptions of experience.
Everything that a computer does is, to my knowledge, at least
in principle publicly available, since it uses publicly available
symbols or code.
Consciousness is direct experience, which cannot be put down in code
any more than life can be put down in code. It is personal and not
publicly available.
I agree with this, about consciousness, but how do you know that your
neighbor is conscious? You can see only his brain or his body, not his
soul.
You cannot know that: it is a bet. Why could'n we make that bet for a
computer. You are just postulating that computer cannot think, but
that is begging the question.
Of course it is not the computer-body which is conscious, but the
(possible) person associated to the computation done by the computer.
same for the brain: a brain is not conscious. Only person are conscious.
Bruno
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/7/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: John Clark
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-06, 13:56:30
Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
?>>I'm openly saying that a high school kid can make a robot that
behaves sensibly with just a few transistors.? ?
Only because he lives in a universe in which the possibility of
teleology is fully supported from the start.
We know with absolute certainty that the laws of physics in this
universe allow for the creation of consciousness, we may not know
how they do it but we know for a fact that it can be done. So how on
Earth does that indicate that a conscious computer is not possible?
Because it doesn't fart??
?
you have erroneously assumed that intelligence is possible without
sense experience.
No, I am assuming the exact OPPOSITE! In fact I'm not even assuming,
I know for a fact that intelligent behavior WITHOUT consciousness
confers a Evolutionary advantage, and I know for a fact that
intelligent behavior WITH consciousness confers no additional
Evolutionary advantage (and if you disagree with that point then you
must believe that the Turing Test works for consciousness too and
not just intelligence). And in spite of all this I know for a fact
that Evolution DID produce consciousness at least once, therefore
the only conclusion is that consciousness is a byproduct of
intellagence.
Adenine and Thymine don't have purpose in seeking to bind with each
other?
I don't even know what a question like that means, who's purpose do
you expect Adenine and Thymine to serve?
How do you know?
I know because I have intelligence and Adenine and Thymine do not
know because they have none, they only have cause and effect.
How is it different from our purpose in staying in close proximity
to places to eat and sleep?
And to think that some people berated me for anthropomorphizing
future supercomputers and here you are ? anthropomorphizing simple
chemicals.
Why is everything aware, why isn't everything not aware?
Because then we wouldn't be aware of having this conversation.
And we are aware of having this conversation because everything is
aware, except of course for computers.
?
Robots are something?
No, they aren't something.
That is just a little too silly to argue.
?
Everything is awareness
Are you certain, I thought everything is klogknee, or maybe its
everything is 42.
evolution requires that something be alive to begin with.
Evolution requires something that can reproduce itself, there is no
universally agreed on definition of "life" so if you want to say
that viruses and RNA strings and crystals and clay patterns and Von
Neumann Machines are alive I won't argue with you and will agree
that Evolution requires that something be alive to get started.
? John K Clark
?
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