Hi Bruno Marchal  

True, I may not be able to prove that the computer is not conscious.
For I certainly cannot be sure if another person is conscious. 

For the computer, I can say however, that it would need
a self to be consciousness, a singular unitary entity into
which the many can be experienced as one. 

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
10/8/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Bruno Marchal  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-10-07, 10:12:50 
Subject: Re: Can computers be conscious ? Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment 


On 07 Oct 2012, at 14:17, Roger Clough wrote: 

> Hi John Clark 
> 
> Unless computers can deal with inextended objects such as 
> mind and experience, they cannot be conscious. 
> 
> Consciousness is direct experience, computers can only deal in  
> descriptions of experience. 
> 
> Everything that a computer does is, to my knowledge, at least 
> in principle publicly available, since it uses publicly available  
> symbols or code. 
> 
> Consciousness is direct experience, which cannot be put down in code 
> any more than life can be put down in code. It is personal and not  
> publicly available. 

I agree with this, about consciousness, but how do you know that your  
neighbor is conscious? You can see only his brain or his body, not his  
soul. 
You cannot know that: it is a bet. Why could'n we make that bet for a  
computer. You are just postulating that computer cannot think, but  
that is begging the question. 
Of course it is not the computer-body which is conscious, but the  
(possible) person associated to the computation done by the computer.  
same for the brain: a brain is not conscious. Only person are conscious. 

Bruno 



> 
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
> 10/7/2012 
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
> 
> 
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> From: John Clark 
> Receiver: everything-list 
> Time: 2012-10-06, 13:56:30 
> Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> ?>>I'm openly saying that a high school kid can make a robot that  
> behaves sensibly with just a few transistors.? ? 
> 
> 
>> Only because he lives in a universe in which the possibility of  
>> teleology is fully supported from the start. 
> 
> 
> We know with absolute certainty that the laws of physics in this  
> universe allow for the creation of consciousness, we may not know  
> how they do it but we know for a fact that it can be done. So how on  
> Earth does that indicate that a conscious computer is not possible?  
> Because it doesn't fart?? 
> 
> ? 
>> you have erroneously assumed that intelligence is possible without  
>> sense experience. 
> 
> No, I am assuming the exact OPPOSITE! In fact I'm not even assuming,  
> I know for a fact that intelligent behavior WITHOUT consciousness  
> confers a Evolutionary advantage, and I know for a fact that  
> intelligent behavior WITH consciousness confers no additional  
> Evolutionary advantage (and if you disagree with that point then you  
> must believe that the Turing Test works for consciousness too and  
> not just intelligence). And in spite of all this I know for a fact  
> that Evolution DID produce consciousness at least once, therefore  
> the only conclusion is that consciousness is a byproduct of  
> intellagence. 
> 
> 
> 
>> Adenine and Thymine don't have purpose in seeking to bind with each  
>> other? 
> 
> 
> I don't even know what a question like that means, who's purpose do  
> you expect Adenine and Thymine to serve? 
> 
> 
> 
>> How do you know? 
> 
> 
> I know because I have intelligence and Adenine and Thymine do not  
> know because they have none, they only have cause and effect. 
> 
> 
> 
>> How is it different from our purpose in staying in close proximity  
>> to places to eat and sleep? 
> 
> 
> And to think that some people berated me for anthropomorphizing  
> future supercomputers and here you are ? anthropomorphizing simple  
> chemicals. 
> 
> 
> 
>>> Why is everything aware, why isn't everything not aware? 
> 
> 
> Because then we wouldn't be aware of having this conversation. 
> 
> 
> And we are aware of having this conversation because everything is  
> aware, except of course for computers. 
> ? 
> 
>>> Robots are something? 
> 
>> No, they aren't something. 
> 
> That is just a little too silly to argue. 
> 
> ? 
> 
>> Everything is awareness 
> 
> Are you certain, I thought everything is klogknee, or maybe its  
> everything is 42. 
> 
> 
> 
>> evolution requires that something be alive to begin with. 
> 
> Evolution requires something that can reproduce itself, there is no  
> universally agreed on definition of "life" so if you want to say  
> that viruses and RNA strings and crystals and clay patterns and Von  
> Neumann Machines are alive I won't argue with you and will agree  
> that Evolution requires that something be alive to get started. 
> 
> ? John K Clark 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ? 
> 
> 
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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 



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