Hi Craig Weinberg  

There's no proof, only a very reasonable expectation.
Science could not work if things happened for no reason.


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
10/12/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Craig Weinberg  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-10-12, 08:56:38 
Subject: Re: The missing agent of materialism 




On Friday, October 12, 2012 8:15:42 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: 
Hi John Clark  

IMHO everything that happens happens for a reason.  
The reason can be physical or IMHO mental.  


Ok, but why are there any 'reasons' to begin with? If there can be reasons 
which did not exist before, then something must be able to create new reasons. 
We are one of those things. We can create our own reasons by clutching a bundle 
of sub-personal reasons and tying them together with a strand of super-personal 
reasons and harness that rope for *our own personal reason* which is not 
reducible to either sub, super, or impersonal exteriors. This is free will, or 
at least will with degrees of freedom. 

Craig 
  


The former is not free will, the latter has some possibility of being  
free to some extent, that is to say, to be self-intentioned. My claim is that  
self-intentioned acts are the products of intelligence.  

Which is IMHO why life, intelligence and free will are inseparable.  
Only living entities can perform self-intentioned choices or acts.  

Now self-intentioned acts require, obviously, an agent, a self,  
meaning that which intends to act or does act. In Leibniz's  
metaphysics, the self is a monad. Materialism does not  
seem to have such an agent.  


Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net  
10/12/2012    
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen  


----- Receiving the following content -----    
From: John Clark    
Receiver: everything-list    
Time: 2012-10-11, 13:14:54  
Subject: Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment  


On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at? Roger Clough  wrote:  



> Free Will-- You need enough freedom  

My difficulty with the "free will" noise is not the "will" part, you want to do 
some things and don't want to do others and that's clear, my difficulty is with 
the "free" part; and all you're saying is that free will is a will that is free 
so that does not help me.    


> to make a choice of your own.  


A choice made for a reason or a choice made for no reason; it's deterministic 
or it's random.    

?  

> Strictly speaking, I prefer the term "self-determination" meaning by anything 
> inside your skin.    

And that thing inside your skin that made you choose X rather than Y came to be 
there for a reason (memory, your DNA, environmental factors, etc)? or it came 
to be inside your skin for no reason at all in which case it was random. I 
still have absolutely no idea what the "free will" noise is supposed to mean 
and a very much doubt that you or anybody else does either; and yet despite not 
having the slightest idea of what it means they will continue to passionately 
believe it. Weird. I neither believe nor disbelieve in "free will".?    

? John K Clark  




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