Hi Bruno Marchal 
 
 You say 

"No, a zombie will stop at the red light. By definition it behaves like  
a human, or like a conscious entity. "

My problem is that the definition is an absurdity to begin with.
If he has no mind, he could not know what a red light means.
He could not know anything. So he could never behave as a 
real person would unless the response was instinctual. 

Note that you may be right, you could never know
if you married a zombie, but that does not follow
from the p-zombie definition. The definition is an absurdity.

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
10/21/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Bruno Marchal  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-10-20, 10:11:25 
Subject: Re: A test for solipsism 




On 20 Oct 2012, at 12:38, Roger Clough wrote: 


Hi Bruno Marchal  

In that definition of a p-zombie below, it says that  
a p-zombie cannot experience qualia, and qualia 
are what the senses tell you. 


Yes. Qualia are the subjective 1p view, sometimes brought by percepts, and 
supposed to be treated by the brain. 
And yes a zombie as no qualia, as a qualia needs consciousness. 












The mind then transforms 
what is sensed into a sensation. The sense of red 
is what the body gives you, the sensation of red  
is what the mind transforms that into. Our mind 
also can recall past sensations of red to compare 
it with and give it a name "red", which a real 
person can identify as eg a red traffic light 
and stop. A zombie would not stop  




No, a zombie will stop at the red light. By definition it behaves like a human, 
or like a conscious entity.  
By definition, if you marry a zombie, your will never been aware of that, your 
whole life.  




(I am not allowing 
the fact that red and green lights are in different 
positions).  
That would be a test of zombieness. 


There exists already detector of colors, smells, capable of doing finer 
discrimination than human. 
I have heard about a machine testing old wine better than human experts. 


Machines evolve quickly. That is why the non-comp people are confronted with 
the idea that zombie might be logically possible for them. 


Bruno 











Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net  
10/20/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen  

----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Bruno Marchal  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-10-19, 03:47:51  
Subject: Re: A test for solipsism  

On 17 Oct 2012, at 19:12, Roger Clough wrote:  
> Hi Bruno Marchal  
>  
> Sorry, I lost the thread on the doctor, and don't know what Craig  
> believes about the p-zombie.  
>  
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie  
>  
> "A philosophical zombie or p-zombie in the philosophy of mind and  
> perception is a hypothetical being  
> that is indistinguishable from a normal human being except in that  
> it lacks conscious experience, qualia, or sentience.[1] When a  
> zombie is poked with a sharp object, for example, it does not feel  
> any pain though it behaves  
> exactly as if it does feel pain (it may say "ouch" and recoil from  
> the stimulus, or tell us that it is in intense pain)."  
>  
> My guess is that this is the solipsism issue, to which I would say  
> that if it has no mind, it cannot converse with you,  
> which would be a test for solipsism,-- which I just now found in  
> typing the first part of this sentence.  
Solipsism makes everyone zombie except you.  
But in some context some people might conceive that zombie exists,  
without making everyone zombie. Craig believes that computers, if they  
might behave like conscious individuals would be a zombie, but he is  
no solipsist.  
There is no test for solipsism, nor for zombieness. BY definition,  
almost. A zombie behaves exactly like a human being. There is no 3p  
features that you could use at all to make a direct test. Now a theory  
which admits zombie, can have other features which might be testable,  
and so some indirect test are logically conceivable, relatively to  
some theory.  
Bruno  



>  
>  
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net  
> 10/17/2012  
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen  
>  
>  
> ----- Receiving the following content -----  
> From: Bruno Marchal  
> Receiver: everything-list  
> Time: 2012-10-17, 08:57:36  
> Subject: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of  
> overlycomplexcomputations ?  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> On 16 Oct 2012, at 15:33, Stephen P. King wrote:  
>  
>  
> On 10/16/2012 9:20 AM, Roger Clough wrote:  
>  
> Hi Stephen P. King  
>  
> Thanks. My mistake was to say that P's position is that  
> consciousness, arises at (or above ?)  
> the level of noncomputability. He just seems to  
> say that intuiton does. But that just seems  
> to be a conjecture of his.  
>  
>  
> ugh, rclo...@verizon.net  
> 10/16/2012  
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen  
>  
>  
> Hi Roger,  
>  
> IMHO, computability can only capture at most a "simulation" of the  
> content of consciousness, but we can deduce a lot from that ...  
>  
>  
>  
> So you do say "no" to the doctor? And you do follow Craig on the  
> existence of p-zombie?  
>  
>  
> Bruno  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/  
>  
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>  
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/  

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