Hi John,

On 20 Oct 2012, at 23:16, John Mikes wrote:

Bruno,
especially in my identification as "responding to relations".
Now the "Self"? IT certainly refers to a more sophisticated level of thinking, more so than the average (animalic?) mind. - OR: we have no idea. What WE call 'Self-Ccness' is definitely a human attribute because WE identify it that way. I never talked to a cauliflower to clarify whether she feels like having a self? (In cauliflowerese, of course).

My feeling was first that all homeotherm animals have self- consciousness, as they have the ability to dream, easily realted to the ability to build a representation of one self. Then I have enlarged the spectrum up to some spiders and the octopi, just by reading a lot about them, looking video.

But this is just a personal appreciation. For the plant, let us say I know nothing, although I supect possible consciousness, related to different scalings.

The following theory seems to have consciousness, for different reason (the main one is that it is Turing Universal):

x + 0 = x
x + s(y) = s(x + y)

 x *0 = 0
 x*s(y) = x*y + x

But once you add the very powerful induction axioms: which say that if a property F is true for zero, and preserved by the successor operation, then it is true for all natural numbers. That is the infinity of axioms:

(F(0) & Ax(F(x) -> F(s(x))) -> AxF(x),

with F(x) being any formula in the arithmetical language (and thus defined with "0, s, +, *),

Then you get Löbianity, and this makes it as much conscious as you and me. Indeed, they got a rich theology about which they can develop maximal awareness, and even test it by comparing the physics retrievable by that theology, and the observation and inference on their most probable neighborhoods.

Löbianity is the treshold at which any new axiom added will create and enlarge the machine ignorance. It is the utimate modesty treshold.


Bruno






On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 17 Oct 2012, at 19:19, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal

IMHO all life must have some degree of consciousness
or it cannot perceive its environment.

Are you sure?

Would you say that the plants are conscious? I do think so, but I am not sure they have self-consciousness.

Self-consciousness accelerates the information treatment, and might come from the need of this for the self-movie living creature having some important mass.

"all life" is a very fuzzy notion.

Bruno








Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/17/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen


----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-17, 10:13:37
Subject: Re: Continuous Game of Life




On 16 Oct 2012, at 18:37, John Clark wrote:


On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 2:40 PM, meekerdb  wrote:


If consciousness doesn't do anything then Evolution can't see it, so how and why did Evolution produce it? The fact that you have no answer to this means your ideas are fatally flawed.

I don't see this as a *fatal* flaw. Evolution, as you've noted, is not a paradigm of efficient design. Consciousness might just be a side-effect

But that's exactly what I've been saying for months, unless Darwin was dead wrong consciousness must be a side effect of intelligence, so a intelligent computer must be a conscious computer. And I don't think Darwin was dead wrong.





Darwin does not need to be wrong. Consciousness role can be deeper, in the "evolution/selection" of the laws of physics from the coherent dreams (computations from the 1p view) in arithmetic.


Bruno




http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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