Hi Bruno Marchal  

Nothing is true, even comp, until it is proven by experiment.
Can you think of an experiment to verify comp ?


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
10/23/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Bruno Marchal  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-10-22, 13:18:13 
Subject: Re: Continuous Game of Life 


Hi Roger, 

You just describe the non-comp conviction. You don't give any  
argument. With comp, you are the owner of an infinity of machine, it  
does not matter if it is in silicon or carbon, as long as the  
components do the right relative things in the most probable history. 

You are just insulting many creatures just by referring to their 3p  
shapes. You are not cautious. You might insult God in the process.  
Certainly so in case they are conscious, imo. 

Any way, strong AI is the hypothesis that machine can be conscious.  
Comp is the assumption that your body behave locally like a machine,  
so that you might change it in some futures. 


Bruno 



On 21 Oct 2012, at 22:35, Roger Clough wrote: 

> Hi Bruno Marchal 
> 
> 1p is to know by acquaintance (only possible to humans). 
> I conjecture that any statement pertaining to humans containing  
> 1p is TRUE. 
> 
> 3p is to know by description (works for both humans and computers). 
> I believe that any statement pertaining to computers containing  
> 1p is FALSE. 
> 
> Consciousness would be to know that you are conscious, or 
> 
> for a real person, 1p(1p) = TRUE 
> and saying that he is conscious to others would be 3p(1p) = TRUE 
> or even (3p(1p(1p))) = TRUE 
> 
> 
> But a computer cannot experience anything (is blocked from 1p), or 
> 
> for a computer, 3p (1p) = FALSE (or any statement containing 1p) 
> but 3p(3p) = TRUE (or any proposition not containing 1p = TRUE) 
> 
> 
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
> 10/21/2012 
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
> 
> 
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> From: Bruno Marchal 
> Receiver: everything-list 
> Time: 2012-10-21, 09:56:39 
> Subject: Re: Continuous Game of Life 
> 
> 
> Hi John, 
> 
> 
> On 20 Oct 2012, at 23:16, John Mikes wrote: 
> 
> 
> Bruno, 
> especially in my identification as "responding to relations". 
> Now the "Self"? IT certainly refers to a more sophisticated level of  
> thinking, more so than the average (animalic?) mind. - OR: we have  
> no idea. What WE call 'Self-Ccness' is definitely a human attribute  
> because WE identify it that way. I never talked to a cauliflower to  
> clarify whether she feels like having a self? (In cauliflowerese, of  
> course). 
> 
> 
> My feeling was first that all homeotherm animals have self-  
> consciousness, as they have the ability to dream, easily realted to  
> the ability to build a representation of one self. Then I have  
> enlarged the spectrum up to some spiders and the octopi, just by  
> reading a lot about them, looking video. 
> 
> 
> But this is just a personal appreciation. For the plant, let us say  
> I know nothing, although I supect possible consciousness, related to  
> different scalings. 
> 
> 
> The following theory seems to have consciousness, for different  
> reason (the main one is that it is Turing Universal): 
> 
> 
> x + 0 = x 
> x + s(y) = s(x + y) 
> 
> 
> x *0 = 0 
> x*s(y) = x*y + x 
> 
> 
> But once you add the very powerful induction axioms: which say that  
> if a property F is true for zero, and preserved by the successor  
> operation, then it is true for all natural numbers. That is the  
> infinity of axioms: 
> 
> 
> (F(0) & Ax(F(x) -> F(s(x))) -> AxF(x), 
> 
> 
> with F(x) being any formula in the arithmetical language (and thus  
> defined with "0, s, +, *), 
> 
> 
> Then you get L?ianity, and this makes it as much conscious as you  
> and me. Indeed, they got a rich theology about which they can  
> develop maximal awareness, and even test it by comparing the physics  
> retrievable by that theology, and the observation and inference on  
> their most probable neighborhoods. 
> 
> 
> L?ianity is the treshold at which any new axiom added will create  
> and enlarge the machine ignorance. It is the utimate modesty treshold. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bruno 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: 
> 
> 
> On 17 Oct 2012, at 19:19, Roger Clough wrote: 
> 
> 
> Hi Bruno Marchal 
> 
> IMHO all life must have some degree of consciousness 
> or it cannot perceive its environment. 
> 
> 
> Are you sure? 
> 
> Would you say that the plants are conscious? I do think so, but I am  
> not sure they have self-consciousness. 
> 
> Self-consciousness accelerates the information treatment, and might  
> come from the need of this for the self-movie living creature having  
> some important mass. 
> 
> "all life" is a very fuzzy notion. 
> 
> Bruno 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
> 10/17/2012 
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
> 
> 
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> From: Bruno Marchal 
> Receiver: everything-list 
> Time: 2012-10-17, 10:13:37 
> Subject: Re: Continuous Game of Life 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 16 Oct 2012, at 18:37, John Clark wrote: 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 2:40 PM, meekerdb wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> If consciousness doesn't do anything then Evolution can't see it, so  
> how and why did Evolution produce it? The fact that you have no  
> answer to this means your ideas are fatally flawed. 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see this as a *fatal* flaw. Evolution, as you've noted, is  
> not a paradigm of efficient design. Consciousness might just be a  
> side-effect 
> 
> 
> But that's exactly what I've been saying for months, unless Darwin  
> was dead wrong consciousness must be a side effect of intelligence,  
> so a intelligent computer must be a conscious computer. And I don't  
> think Darwin was dead wrong. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darwin does not need to be wrong. Consciousness role can be deeper,  
> in the "evolution/selection" of the laws of physics from the  
> coherent dreams (computations from the 1p view) in arithmetic. 
> 
> 
> Bruno 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 
> 
> --  
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google  
> Groups "Everything List" group. 
> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com  
> . 
> For more options, visit this group at 
> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en  
> . 
> 
> 
> 
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 
> 
> 
> 
> --  
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google  
> Groups "Everything List" group. 
> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com  
> . 
> For more options, visit this group at 
> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en  
> . 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --  
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google  
> Groups "Everything List" group. 
> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com  
> . 
> For more options, visit this group at 
> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en  
> . 
> 
> 
> 
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 
> 
> --  
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google  
> Groups "Everything List" group. 
> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com  
> . 
> For more options, visit this group at 
> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en  
> . 
> 

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 



--  
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group. 
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. 
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. 
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.

Reply via email to