On 23 Oct 2012, at 17:27, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:

Bruno was born 100 years too late, he would have predicted quantum mechanics.

Haha, thanks Saibal. But only the MW then, as 100 years ago, Gödel didn't yet prove that computations are already in arithmetic. Without Gödel and Church thesis, or, actually, molecular biology and the discovery of DNA and enzyme, I am not sure I would have ever taken comp seriously enough.

Of course comp + knowledge theory still needs to be tested fully. It would be astonishing this gives directly the physical laws, so some room will remain where we can improve or update the theory of knowledge.

Bruno



Citeren Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net>:

Hi Bruno Marchal

Nothing is true, even comp, until it is proven by experiment.
Can you think of an experiment to verify comp ?


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/23/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen


----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-22, 13:18:13
Subject: Re: Continuous Game of Life


Hi Roger,

You just describe the non-comp conviction. You don't give any
argument. With comp, you are the owner of an infinity of machine, it
does not matter if it is in silicon or carbon, as long as the
components do the right relative things in the most probable history.

You are just insulting many creatures just by referring to their 3p
shapes. You are not cautious. You might insult God in the process.
Certainly so in case they are conscious, imo.

Any way, strong AI is the hypothesis that machine can be conscious.
Comp is the assumption that your body behave locally like a machine,
so that you might change it in some futures.


Bruno



On 21 Oct 2012, at 22:35, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal

1p is to know by acquaintance (only possible to humans).
I conjecture that any statement pertaining to humans containing
1p is TRUE.

3p is to know by description (works for both humans and computers).
I believe that any statement pertaining to computers containing
1p is FALSE.

Consciousness would be to know that you are conscious, or

for a real person, 1p(1p) = TRUE
and saying that he is conscious to others would be 3p(1p) = TRUE
or even (3p(1p(1p))) = TRUE


But a computer cannot experience anything (is blocked from 1p), or

for a computer, 3p (1p) = FALSE (or any statement containing 1p)
but 3p(3p) = TRUE (or any proposition not containing 1p = TRUE)


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/21/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen


----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-21, 09:56:39
Subject: Re: Continuous Game of Life


Hi John,


On 20 Oct 2012, at 23:16, John Mikes wrote:


Bruno,
especially in my identification as "responding to relations".
Now the "Self"? IT certainly refers to a more sophisticated level of
thinking, more so than the average (animalic?) mind. - OR: we have
no idea. What WE call 'Self-Ccness' is definitely a human attribute
because WE identify it that way. I never talked to a cauliflower to
clarify whether she feels like having a self? (In cauliflowerese, of
course).


My feeling was first that all homeotherm animals have self-
consciousness, as they have the ability to dream, easily realted to
the ability to build a representation of one self. Then I have
enlarged the spectrum up to some spiders and the octopi, just by
reading a lot about them, looking video.


But this is just a personal appreciation. For the plant, let us say
I know nothing, although I supect possible consciousness, related to
different scalings.


The following theory seems to have consciousness, for different
reason (the main one is that it is Turing Universal):


x + 0 = x
x + s(y) = s(x + y)


x *0 = 0
x*s(y) = x*y + x


But once you add the very powerful induction axioms: which say that
if a property F is true for zero, and preserved by the successor
operation, then it is true for all natural numbers. That is the
infinity of axioms:


(F(0) & Ax(F(x) -> F(s(x))) -> AxF(x),


with F(x) being any formula in the arithmetical language (and thus
defined with "0, s, +, *),


Then you get L?ianity, and this makes it as much conscious as you
and me. Indeed, they got a rich theology about which they can
develop maximal awareness, and even test it by comparing the physics
retrievable by that theology, and the observation and inference on
their most probable neighborhoods.


L?ianity is the treshold at which any new axiom added will create
and enlarge the machine ignorance. It is the utimate modesty treshold.




Bruno











On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 17 Oct 2012, at 19:19, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Bruno Marchal

IMHO all life must have some degree of consciousness
or it cannot perceive its environment.


Are you sure?

Would you say that the plants are conscious? I do think so, but I am
not sure they have self-consciousness.

Self-consciousness accelerates the information treatment, and might
come from the need of this for the self-movie living creature having
some important mass.

"all life" is a very fuzzy notion.

Bruno









Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/17/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen


----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-17, 10:13:37
Subject: Re: Continuous Game of Life




On 16 Oct 2012, at 18:37, John Clark wrote:


On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 2:40 PM, meekerdb wrote:



If consciousness doesn't do anything then Evolution can't see it, so
how and why did Evolution produce it? The fact that you have no
answer to this means your ideas are fatally flawed.



I don't see this as a *fatal* flaw. Evolution, as you've noted, is
not a paradigm of efficient design. Consciousness might just be a
side-effect


But that's exactly what I've been saying for months, unless Darwin
was dead wrong consciousness must be a side effect of intelligence,
so a intelligent computer must be a conscious computer. And I don't
think Darwin was dead wrong.





Darwin does not need to be wrong. Consciousness role can be deeper,
in the "evolution/selection" of the laws of physics from the
coherent dreams (computations from the 1p view) in arithmetic.


Bruno




http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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