On 25 Oct 2012, at 17:55, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
But I don not mean such kind of anticipation. such anticipation by
gathering information and computation is a fundamental activity of
living beings.
OK.
I refer to adivination. I suppose that a definition of
adivination is the anticipation of something for which we have no
conscious or unconscious inference possible. To anticipate that a
policeman knoking on the door will tell us bad news is not
adivination, for example.
OK. I am not sure the paper under discussion spoke of adivination,
even if the title and some paragraph are not completely clear on this
(to attract reader perhaps).
Bruno
2012/10/25 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>:
On 24 Oct 2012, at 19:31, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
I dont believe that such genuine anticipation is possible, for a
simple
reason: If for quantum or relativistic means the mind or the brain
could
genuinely anticipate anything, this would be such a huge advantage,
that
this hability would be inherited genetically by everyone of us,
every human
plant, animal with the most accurate precission. because it would
be so
critical.
The fact is the we have no such hability. the most we can do is to
simulate
it with the available data, gatering as much as possible
information from
the behaviour, faces etc of other human beings and we process it
unconsciously. Most of the time even we are not conscious of how much
information we gather.
I think we anticipate all the time. At every second. When we drive
a car, we
anticipate the movement and correct it accordingly. There are many
picture
of object lacking a crucial elements which when shown rapidly to
subject
makes the subject swearing having seen the lacking elements. When
shown more
slowly after, the subject is usually astonished to see they were
lacking. A
part of that anticipation is part of Hobson theory of dream, where
the
cerebral stem might sent to the cortex quasi random information,
and the
dreams is the result of the cortex anticipating sense from that crude
information. A building of an hypothesis/theory and its momentary
admission
is also a form of anticipation. Everyone anticipate that tomorrow
the sun
will rise.
If you decide to open your fridge you anticipate the vague shape of
what you
can see in your fridge. It is far more efficient than analyse the
data like
if they were new.
I don't think there is anything controversial here. Helmholtz
theory is
usually accepted as a base in pattern recognition, and basic
perception. It
is rather well tested.
More provocative perhaps: I personally would not been so much
astonished
that evolution itself does make variate sort of anticipation. I
would not
find this utterly shocking, as genetic algorithm can isolate
anticipative
programs, like brains are. It would just means that some brain-like
mechanism has already appear at the level of the genome, but on a
scale
which makes it hard to be detected for us. I am not sure at all
about this,
but I see nothing really "magical" if such thing was detected.
Bruno
2012/10/24 Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]>
2012/10/24 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
On 24 Oct 2012, at 14:31, Stephen P. King wrote:
http://www.frontiersin.org/Perception_Science/10.3389/fpsyg.2012.00390/abstract
Comments?
If verified it might confirms Helmholtz intuition that
"perception" is
"unconscious anticipation".
It would be the Dt of the Bp & Dt. It is natural with the finding
that
when we "perceive objects" a big deal of information does not
come from the
data but from the brains (memories, constructions, gap
fillings, ...)
I struggle with the psicho-slang to ascertain what they really said.
From some comentaires:
The title and intro leave out the fact that a likely cause --
cited by
the highest-quality study -- is the experimental methods. I am
curious if
any of the experiments attempted to automate both stimulus
presentation and
data analysis to avoid experimenter effects.
It may be a variation of the case of subtle perception of the
experimenter
intentions by the subjects under test.
I remember the case of a Horse that apparently know how to multiply
numbers. The horse stopped khocking on the floor when the
experimenter moved
in a certain way when the number of knocks reached the correct
result. The
experimenter did not realized that he was sending the signal
"enough" to the
horse.
This may be a more sophisticated case of the same phenomenon. In
this case
the signal could be "be prepared because we are going to do this
or that".
Neiter the experimeinte nor the subject of the experiment have to be
conscious of that signal. There are a largue number of bad
psychological
experiments with these flaws. One of the last ones, the subject of
these
experiment was myself with my otolaryngologist who, to test my
audition
performance, advised me when I supposedly must hear a weak sound
instead of
shut up and wait.
Some comment in your links above seems to confirm this analysis,
but I
have not really the time to dig deeper.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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