On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>>>> After the duplication all the John Clark realise that they are in only
>>>> one city,
>>> >>> And that is exactly what John Clark predicted would happen.
>> >> And John Clark is correct on this.
> > But that was not yet the question asked, which concerns the experience
> that you (in Helsinki) will lived in the future.

But it is still not clear who "you" refers to and that is why pronouns
should not be used. If "you" refers to the Helsinki man then "you" will
experience no city at all because according to Bruno Marchal's thought
experiment the Helsinki man is destroyed. If the question is who "you" will
turn into the answer is the Moscow man AND the Washington man and there is
no reason to expect a single answer because YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED and
when something has been duplicated the result is there are two things not
one. All the confusion stems from the fact that Bruno Marchal blithely says
that something has been duplicated but no effort is made to stop and think
what that actually means.

>> John Clark correctly predicted that the Moscow man would see Moscow and
>> the Washington man would see Moscow.
> >But John Clark in helsinki is not asked what will see both men, but which
> men he will feel to be.

He? Whether the Helsinki man feels like he is the Moscow man and only the
Moscow man or the Washington man and only the Washington man depends on one
thing and one thing only, whether he's seen Moscow or Washington. In this
case the Helsinki man has seen both so if Bruno Marchal were the Helsinki
man then Bruno Marchal would feel to be in Washington only and Bruno
Marchal would feel to be in Moscow only BECAUSE BRUNO MARCHAL HAS BEEN

>> before either saw either city John Clark does not even understand what
>> is meant by "which one".
> >This means that he lacks the cognitive ability to imagine what both the
> M-man and the W-man will feel.

But there is no M-man or W-man until they see Moscow and Washington, it's
what defines them, until then there is only the Helsinki man so it makes no
sense to ask questions about "which man". The Helsinki man turns into the
Washington man and the Helsinki man turns into the Moscow man and all of
them feel like they are exactly the same person they were before and all of
them feel like they are in one and only one city. And if destroyed the
Helsinki man turns into nothing, that is to say there is no longer anyone
experiencing Helsinki, and if he is not destroyed then the Helsinki man
remains the Helsinki man. When the word "which" is included in a question
it implies that there can only be one answer, but this is incorrect because

John Clark correctly predicted what will happen to everyone as can be
verified by interviewing all the parties involved after the proceedings
have concluded. And if Bruno Marchal has destroyed the Helsinki man John
Clark should not be blamed if Bruno Marchal can't interview him afterward;
if you let the poor fellow live he will say John Clark was correct about
the Helsinki man too.

> "Which city" is asked to the Helsinki man

Which city will the Helsinki man feel to be in? Moscow and Washington

> which has already understand that after pushing the button and localize
> himself he will see only one city

Exactly, but "he" is plural, he is not a singular pronoun because HE HAS
BEEN DUPLICATED, so obviously the answer can not be singular and a list is
required to answer the question. And obviously the answer is Moscow only
and Washington only BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN DUPLICATED. Your claim to have
discovered a new type of indeterminacy is just a convoluted restatement of
the fact that one is not equal to two.

> the question is about which one,

John Clark wishes Bruno Marchal would be more clear, but John Clark
surmises that the question must be about which city, it can't be about
which man because before the duplication and the observation of different
cities there was only one man; so the answer is Moscow and Washington

> you admit that there is only one 1p,

Only 1p per person, but at last count there were 7.05 billion 1p's on this
planet; and if YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED then "you" has become 2 people not

> The prediction is on the experience itself, so a list of experience
> (which is never experienced by any 1p, as you say yourself) does not make
> sense.

If YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED and "you" ask about what "you" will experience
then a list is the only answer that does make sense.

> Nobody has pretend that comp is contradictory. Just that you cannot
> predict which among W and M you will experience in the future of the
> Helsinki experiment.

Prove that a correct prediction can't be made!! I repeat my challenge,
interview all the parties involved after the experiment and show what John
Clark failed to predict, find someone who testifies he experienced
something that John Clark did not predict. Do that and you've won the

> There is no contradiction here, only indeterminacy,

It's so indeterminate you don't know who doesn't know it, or even what "it"

> you can ask the question to all the copies. Both will answer something
> like W and not M, or M and not W.

Exactly precisely as predicted.

> A correct prediction would have been W or M.

No! If that "or" is the exclusive "or" then that would have been quite
obviously a INCORRECT prediction. If you don't believe John Clark about
this then just interview the parties after it's all over and see for
yourself. The correct prediction would have been both W AND M.

  John K Clark

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