On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

> By step 1 we already know that only the body of the Helsinki man can be
> said to be destroyed. With step one we know that the Helsinki man will
> survive,
>

I agree, so all that's happened is that nobody is experiencing Helsinki
anymore.

> in two examplars, in M and in W.
>

I agree completely, and by far the most important word is "AND".

> Then the indeterminacy comes simply from the fact that in Helsinki,
> although he knows that he will survive, he cannot be sure that he (the
> Helsinki man, you) will feel himself to be the one surviving in W, or the
> one in M.
>

Or? OR?!! Bruno Marchal just said the Helsinki man will survive in two
examples, in M AND in W"; and now Bruno Marchal is asking if the Helsinki
man will survive in M OR W. It makes no sense! This is a perfect example of
how the indiscriminate use of pronouns can tie one into very silly logical
contortions. Pronouns are just to save ware and tear on the typing fingers,
so if a statement simply can not be made without the use of pronouns its a
sure fire sine that the statement makes no sense and pronouns are needed to
mask the confusion.

> The helsinki man knows in advance that he will not feel to be both at
> once, as both future "first person" will live only a singular, in once
> city, experience.
>

OK, but if "he" correctly predicted it where is the indeterminacy?

> Only the bodies have been duplicated. The first person is never
> duplicated from His/Her points of view.
>

The Moscow man can see a continuous trajectory from being the Helsinki man
to now being the Moscow man and the same is true of the Washington man, so
the Helsinki man has obviously been duplicated.

> You are looking at yourself from the 3p view, which explains why you miss
> the correct comp answer. you just don't know where you will feel to be
> after pushing the button.
>

That's 5 uses of "you" in just 32 words. It's true that not using pronouns
makes language sound a little awkward but sometimes in philosophy there is
no alternative, and Bruno Marchal simply can not express the ideas that
Bruno Marchal wants to express without using pronouns, and that tells John
Clark something about the nature of  Bruno Marchal's ideas.

> Yes. And so, both Bruno Marchal will say that they were unable to be sure
> in advance which of of being in only M (resp W) they could happen to be.
>

Tommy has a apple inside box X and inside box Y, things are intermittent
because Tommy is unable to be sure "which" box has a apple inside.

>> But there is no M-man or W-man until they see Moscow and Washington,
>>
>
> > Sure. But the question is asked to the Helsinki man, who will survive in
> that experience by comp. Both the W and M men are the Helsinki man.
>

So what's the problem?


> > John Clark correctly predicted what will happen to everyone as can be
>> verified by interviewing all the parties involved after the proceedings
>> have concluded.
>>
>
> Not at all. You said W and M. So both will say that he was wrong,
>

I said the Washington man will feel that he was the Helsinki man and I said
the Moscow man will feel he was the Helsinki man, ask them and see if I was
correct. I also said the Washington man will see Washington and the Moscow
man will see Moscow, ask them and see if I was right about that too.

> If the man in Helsinki is not destroyed, then the indeterminacy will bear
> on {H, W, M}, and the probability of being one of them is 1/3. That is step
> 5!
>

Then I'm glad I never read past step 3.

>>> A correct prediction would have been W or M.
>>>
>>
>> >> No! If that "or" is the exclusive "or" then that would have been quite
>> obviously a INCORRECT prediction. If you don't believe John Clark about
>> this then just interview the parties after it's all over and see for
>> yourself. The correct prediction would have been both W AND M.
>>
>
> >This contradicts what you say above,
>

I said a lot of stuff "above" but I see no contradiction.

  John K Clark

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