On 06 Nov 2012, at 19:45, John Clark wrote:
On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
> Define "John Clark".
Define "define".
See below.
> the semantic of proper name is the most difficult unsolved
problem in philosophy.
No it is not, the meaning of pronouns like "I" and "He" and "you"
where it is not even known what proper name they refer to because of
the existence of duplicating chambers is the most difficult unsolved
problem in philosophy.
> Comp gives hints,
Hints that do me no good because I no longer know what "comp" means,
and I strongly suspect you don't either.
>> And after its all over and the dust has settled John Clark can
see that John Clark's Helsinki prediction, that was made before all
this started, was completely accurate.
> I don't see this at all. After the duplication all the John Clark
realise that they are in only one city,
And that is exactly what John Clark predicted would happen.
And John Clark is correct on this. But that was not yet the question
asked, which concerns the experience that you (in Helsinki) will lived
in the future. From your correct prediction above, you can already
predict that whoever you will happen to feel to be, as human single
individual, you will see only one city.
> and that they were unable to predict which one.
Wrong! John Clark correctly predicted that the Moscow man would see
Moscow and the Washington man would see Moscow.
But John Clark in helsinki is not asked what will see both men, but
which men he will feel to be. He already know that he will feel to be
only one among the M and W men.
John Clark doesn't understand what more should be expected of a
prediction;
The result of the experience "who am I ", done after pushing the button.
and before either saw either city John Clark does not even
understand what is meant by "which one".
This means that he lacks the cognitive ability to imagine what both
the M-man and the W-man will feel.
The words "which city" has meaning but the words "which John Clark"
does not as long as neither has seen a city and both are still
identical.
"Which city" is asked to the Helsinki man, which has already
understand that after pushing the button and localize himself he will
see only one city, as he illustrated himself above.
> You the 3p view on the 1p views, which makes indeed sense, as it
is the 3p view on the 1p views that we can attribute to another,
John Clark is getting tired of all this peeing and still doesn't
know what the 3p view on the 1p views by two 1p as seen from the 3p
view is supposed to mean. John Clark can only view John Clark's
view, the first person view.
> You said that after the duplication the 1-views of the John Clark
have been duplicated, and this contradict what you say now.
John Clark said that after John Clark's body and brain has been
duplicated John Clark's consciousness has NOT been duplicated
because it is not a noun, it's what a noun does. There will be only
one mind until the environment causes a change in one brain that is
not made in the other, and after that the 2 brains operate
differently and thus what they do, mind, is different and they
become different people;
Yes. And the question is about which one, which makes sense as you
admit that there is only one 1p, from the 1p view after the
experience. The prediction is on the experience itself, so a list of
experience (which is never experienced by any 1p, as you say yourself)
does not make sense.
although they are both John Clark because John Clark has been
duplicated. And there is nothing contradictory in any of that, it's
just odd.
Nobody has pretend that comp is contradictory. Just that you cannot
predict which among W and M you will experience in the future of the
Helsinki experiment. It is not even odd, as it gives a simple
explanation of why determinism can lead to indeterminacy of experience.
> Only one question is asked, to only one guy: "Where will you feel
to be after the duplication?"
And the answer is Washington and Moscow.
That the 3-view on the 1-views. But the question is about your future
1-views on the 1-view.
None of the copy will live "washington and Moscow". Boththe copy will
live "I am in one city". And both will grasp that they could not have
been able to predict, in Helsinki, which one thay are living now,
after the duplication + self-localization.
If you then asked "me" if "I" would feel like "I" was in one city or
two "I" would answer just one without hesitation. And this is
strange but not contradictory because "I" HAS BEEN DUPLICATED.
You keep talking like if someone saw a contradiction. Why would I
study comp if comp was leading to a contradiction. There is no
contradiction here, only indeterminacy, which is the point.
> If you reason like that in quantum QM without collapse, and if you
look at the position of an electron in hydrogen atom, you have to
answer "I will find the electron is everywhere".
Yes the electron is everywhere but If Many Worlds is correct then
John Clark is everywhere too and has as many states to be in as the
electron has places to go.
But you will still use the quantum rule for predicting where the
electron can be find in the majority of those worlds.
So no matter where the electron is after a experiment there will
always be a John Clark who observes the electron hitting that and
only that point on the photographic plate. No matter where a
electron is there will always be a John Clark observing it there
after a experiment.
That's the correct explanation of the origin of the quantum
indeterminacy from the comp indeterminacy.
> pronouns have a far simpler semantic than proper name.
That can't be, all pronouns are supposed to refer to a noun so can't
be simpler than the noun.
That is false. You can define anonymous self-referential expression.
And there is a technic for doing that. But for the proper name we
can't use such technic, and non are eminently ambiguous.
Bruno Marchal keeps shoving John Clark into duplicating chambers and
then sends John Clark on various exciting but very different
adventures and then asks what "you" will see; but there can be no
answer because it is a incomplete question. It's like asking how
much is 2 +....?
No, it like asking John Clark to predict which hole a quantum particle
will go through, assuming he will measure exactly that. IF John Clark
remembers QM he will say (1/sqrt(2))^2 = 1/2, despite the situation is
deterministic in the 3p view. It is the same, but simpler as it does
not assume QM, in the WM-duplication.
> You opush on a button, and you look around. What will you see.
What will who see?
Oh, you can ask the question to all the copies. Both will answer
something like W and not M, or M and not W. And both will say "I was
not able to predict in advance which among {W and not M, M and not W}
I could see".
A correct prediction would have been W or M. In that case both copies
will still agree on the prediction. With W & M, both are false, as W
and M represents here personal location feeling, and not the location
of the bodies.
> a first person indeterminacy in Helsinki, about which city you
will see.
Which city will who see?
John Clark. Well defined in Helsinki, and even after.
> Define "John Clark".
Why? Examples are vastly more important than definitions.
Sure. I have no problem with that. And this answer your question above.
I have no clue what you miss. You don't succeed at all to make a
point. What you call "odd" is the first person person indeterminacy,
by definition. And you clearly grasp enough of it to pursue the
reasoning. You even seem to see now the relationship between the comp
indeterminacy and the quantum-without-collapse indeterminacy.
Please read step 4, in sane2004, and let us proceed.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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