On Nov 8, 2012, at 9:44 AM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>>>> After the duplication all the John Clark realise that they are in only one city,

>>> And that is exactly what John Clark predicted would happen.

>> And John Clark is correct on this.

> But that was not yet the question asked, which concerns the experience that you (in Helsinki) will lived in the future.

But it is still not clear who "you" refers to and that is why pronouns should not be used. If "you" refers to the Helsinki man then "you" will experience no city at all because according to Bruno Marchal's thought experiment the Helsinki man is destroyed.

This contradicts the time you agreed that one can survive via duplication.

It also contradicts when you agreed that you associate yourself with a stream of thoughts.

You stick to backward facing views of what has already happened when Bruno repeadedly reminds you it is a question concerning the future.

Your above claims might be consistent if you had stuck to the idea that all anyone is or ever will be is a single static thought stuck in a single point in time, but you keep going back and forth on this. You can't have it both ways, so which is it?


If the question is who "you" will turn into the answer is the Moscow man AND the Washington man and there is no reason to expect a single answer because YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED and when something has been duplicated the result is there are two things not one. All the confusion stems from the fact that Bruno Marchal blithely says that something has been duplicated but no effort is made to stop and think what that actually means.

>> John Clark correctly predicted that the Moscow man would see Moscow and the Washington man would see Moscow.

>But John Clark in helsinki is not asked what will see both men, but which men he will feel to be.

He? Whether the Helsinki man feels like he is the Moscow man and only the Moscow man or the Washington man and only the Washington man depends on one thing and one thing only, whether he's seen Moscow or Washington. In this case the Helsinki man has seen both so if Bruno Marchal were the Helsinki man then Bruno Marchal would feel to be in Washington only and Bruno Marchal would feel to be in Moscow only BECAUSE BRUNO MARCHAL HAS BEEN DUPLICATED.

>> before either saw either city John Clark does not even understand what is meant by "which one".

>This means that he lacks the cognitive ability to imagine what both the M-man and the W-man will feel.

But there is no M-man or W-man until they see Moscow and Washington, it's what defines them, until then there is only the Helsinki man so it makes no sense to ask questions about "which man". The Helsinki man turns into the Washington man and the Helsinki man turns into the Moscow man and all of them feel like they are exactly the same person they were before and all of them feel like they are in one and only one city. And if destroyed the Helsinki man turns into nothing, that is to say there is no longer anyone experiencing Helsinki, and if he is not destroyed then the Helsinki man remains the Helsinki man. When the word "which" is included in a question it implies that there can only be one answer, but this is incorrect because YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED.

John Clark correctly predicted what will happen to everyone as can be verified by interviewing all the parties involved after the proceedings have concluded. And if Bruno Marchal has destroyed the Helsinki man John Clark should not be blamed if Bruno Marchal can't interview him afterward; if you let the poor fellow live he will say John Clark was correct about the Helsinki man too.

> "Which city" is asked to the Helsinki man

Which city will the Helsinki man feel to be in? Moscow and Washington because THE HELSINKI MAN HAS BEEN DUPLICATED.

> which has already understand that after pushing the button and localize himself he will see only one city

Exactly, but "he" is plural, he is not a singular pronoun because HE HAS BEEN DUPLICATED, so obviously the answer can not be singular and a list is required to answer the question. And obviously the answer is Moscow only and Washington only BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN DUPLICATED. Your claim to have discovered a new type of indeterminacy is just a convoluted restatement of the fact that one is not equal to two.

> the question is about which one,

John Clark wishes Bruno Marchal would be more clear, but John Clark surmises that the question must be about which city, it can't be about which man because before the duplication and the observation of different cities there was only one man; so the answer is Moscow and Washington because YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED.

> you admit that there is only one 1p,

Only 1p per person, but at last count there were 7.05 billion 1p's on this planet; and if YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED then "you" has become 2 people not one.

> The prediction is on the experience itself, so a list of experience (which is never experienced by any 1p, as you say yourself) does not make sense.

If YOU HAVE BEEN DUPLICATED and "you" ask about what "you" will experience then a list is the only answer that does make sense.

> Nobody has pretend that comp is contradictory. Just that you cannot predict which among W and M you will experience in the future of the Helsinki experiment.

Prove that a correct prediction can't be made!! I repeat my challenge, interview all the parties involved after the experiment and show what John Clark failed to predict, find someone who testifies he experienced something that John Clark did not predict. Do that and you've won the argument.

> There is no contradiction here, only indeterminacy,

It's so indeterminate you don't know who doesn't know it, or even what "it" is.

> you can ask the question to all the copies. Both will answer something like W and not M, or M and not W.

Exactly precisely as predicted.

> A correct prediction would have been W or M.

No! If that "or" is the exclusive "or" then that would have been quite obviously a INCORRECT prediction. If you don't believe John Clark about this then just interview the parties after it's all over and see for yourself. The correct prediction would have been both W AND M.

  John K Clark

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