On 12/15/2012 5:27 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On Saturday, December 15, 2012 4:58:44 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote:

    On 12/15/2012 4:11 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

    On Saturday, December 15, 2012 3:56:58 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul
    King wrote:

        On 12/15/2012 3:44 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
        'm saying that to me it seems clear that some people did
        know better, and that those people were Progressive. Again,
        you might disagree, which is what I am asking. If you
        disagree, ok, cool, but why? Otherwise it seems like you are
        saying that it is pointless to have any political view at
        all because morality is an unknowable mystery.

        Hi Craig,

            Name some of these? I like Sam Harris, Penn Jillette,
        Glen Beck, Dan Ariely...

    Which contemporary political people do I like? Eh, I don't get
    into that so much but if I had to say someone, I like Cornel
    West, Bill Maher, Rachel Maddow, Thom Hartmann more than Penn or
    Sam Harris (although mainly I disagree with him on Free Will, not
    sure of his other politics as much). Glen Beck, Rush, Ann
    Coulter... umm. I only hope that they are born non-white,
    non-Christian, and poor for their next 2000 lives.

        Ah, "not a cause of some wrong"... Is it OK to be
    "projectively bigoted"?

Not sure what you're saying. Bigotry is always a projection, isn't it? Is bigotry OK? It's probably unavoidable to a certain extent, but it isn't a useful or attractive trait as far as I can tell.

Hi Craig,

Ethics is my second favorite subject within Philosophy! I would like to see West or Maher or Rachel Maddow, etc. held up to the same scrutiny as those that they cast upon others. The same goes for Newt or Bachman, or Phelps. I can link you Youtube videos of each of those people making statement that can not be seen as anything other than bigots, but I hope that you will not demand that I spend my time doing that..

Is what you wrote above a good enough reasoning to make an absolute claim that any form of bigotry is "bad behavior", what should be avoided? Isn't such a good indication that we can have some hard rules. Things go sideways when we bring in "conditions" and "situations" that allow us to rationalize some forms of bigotry to be "OK".

    What makes any person or group of persons to make absolute judgements?

Does that include those making the absolute judgements on those they perceive as making absolute judgments?

Absolutes are absolute, they do not depend of circumstances nor situation.

    How can they imagine for themselves the absolute knowledge of
    Truth, and yet, they with their finite computational capacity,
    dare do so. Hubris! Behold, Light-bringer!

I don't think it takes a Lucifer or Phoenix to see that abolishing slavery at all costs was a better option than preserving it at all costs.

Yeah, but we happen to be siting in the 21st century using the knowledge that has accumulated by science and so forth to pass judgement on people that did not have our current capacity and we can claim to not be bigoted? NO! Are we to accept the indictment of our possible ancestors for crimes that they may have committed to cast a shadow on our lives? Really? What choice did you or I have in the nature and behavior of our respective possible ancestors? I had just as much choice as I have of the color of the skin I was born with! So what does the "lottery of life" have to do with things?

Maybe rationalizing bigotry into something OK or even acceptable is not a nice move!

Sometimes there are moments when it comes down to that.

Really? So there are conditions where it is OK to hate certain people just because they have some look or smell or live in a house bigger than mine or ... about them? Or that they say strange things that we might not agree with?

It doesn't take infinite wisdom to see that having a handful of all powerful wealthy overlords rule over billions of people living in various states of alienation and poverty.

OK, what are the names of these "all powerful wealthy overlords" so that we may go and do "direct actions" against them? I have some interesting skills... ;-)

I'm not saying these kinds of things weren't inevitable or that those who rule are any worse than any other people who might have ruled instead.

How about we figure out ways to prevent potential "all powerful wealth overlords" from ever being born by genetically engineering a desire to be all powerful and wealthy and overlord? WE can do that you know! We just make it so that every one is equally smart, so no one can have any advantage over any other person. What then is the maximum intelligence that is necessary to survive as a human being and not be predisposed to being a "all powerful wealthy overlord"? Idi Amin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin> was not that smart... I have seen estimates that his IQ was probably around 72. Well, shit, stupid people can be "all powerful wealthy overlords". So what else might we do to prevent the existence of "all powerful wealthy overlords"? Could we prevent the accumulation of wealth and by so doing prevent the existence of "all powerful wealthy overlords"? What would be the maximum quantity of wreath allowed? Who would decide that number? It had better not be "all powerful wealthy overlords" that decide things like that!

To me its a logistical issue.

It most certainly is a logical issue! It is a lack of logical reasoning that allowed the existence of "all powerful wealthy overlords", IMHO. So when I see governmental policies that prevent people from learning how to reason, what am I to ascertain about those policies of the people that advocate for them? People that tell me that bigotry is sometimes OK, that the taking of some life is OK, the telling for some lies if OK, the cheating on tests is OK, so long as there is a "good reason" for it...?

    I seem to be inadvertently arguing for absolutes!

There is currently a condition where the mathematics of population, technology, and the distribution of resources makes a catastrophic inequality without some sort of intervention.

I absolutely agree! And we are also faced with many choices as to what to do about it. Some of those choices fall into a category called: "might cause harm to people" and some fall into a category called "Will cause harm to people". I wish to not explore choices from the second category! Maybe there is a category of choices called: "Does no harm at all". I have firm reasons to believe that this last category cannot exist.

Personally I don't think that there is any hope of that - I think it's all going to continue to get worse and worse for everyone...but I could be wrong and I hope that I am. Surprises have happened before.

I am an optimist. I believe, perhaps delusionally, that all real problems have solutions. Only imaginary problems are insolvable.



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