On Tuesday, December 18, 2012 10:40:40 AM UTC-5, Alberto G.Corona wrote:
> This is just one of many draft menssages in response to political 
> questions that I did not send to this group because it is of-topic, but it 
> may be interesting. 
> 'Was slavery good before Progressive activism changed it'?  
> You continue to mix progress, progressives and what is good, making your 
> arguments tautological. 

> As weel you consider progress as a result of the intentional act of 
> progressives, the good ones, which figth with people that do not want the 
> inprovement of the conditions of the people, the bad or ignorant ones.

If you are claiming that slavery was not a Progressive social movement, 
then say so. 

> It is like if I say that the discovery of the ligth bulb is a form of 
> progress, therefore Edison was progressive and, thus good. And Edison was 
> fighting agains people that wanted people to stay in dark, the bad ignorant 
> ones.

Did I say that all forms of progress are Progressive? No. I just asked 
about the boons to civilization which are incontrovertibly recognized as 
aspects or products of Progressive political movements:

Abolition of Slavery
Civil Rights
Labor Laws
Women's Suffrage
Protest against unnecessary and futile war
Criticism of the failed Drug War
Support of tolerance and against gender and ethnicity discrimination.

> ,This is double erroneous. First, progress may appear as a consequence of 
> change on the conditions that many if not all wanted, not only 
> "progressives". If I want a life without the need of working, and write 
> about it, I´m a progressive person, 

Or if you want a life without the need of working and you invest inherited 
money, then you're a conservative person.

> but I do not produce progress. Later if someone discover a source of free 
> energy and other people makes a line of obedient robotos, the progress in 
> avoiding working Is not my merit as progressive, but a consequence of the 
> evolution of the society. 

Yet if my investments allow a large oil company to buy up alternative 
energy patents and hoard them while squeezing profits out of the rest of 
the world, then the lack of progress in avoiding work is not the my merit 
as a conservative, but a consequence of the amoral and progress-retarding 
potentials of investing.

> In another 100 years after avoiding working,  the world "working" would be 
> assimilated to slavery. 

Hyperbolic straw man from the cliche bin.

> I would be a greath progressivist and my contemporaries would be 
> "workists", the synonymous of "slavists". This is despite the fact that 
> almost no one wanted to work and make other to work and despite the fact 
> that I had people working for me. The progressives of tomorrow, will praise 
> me as the antiworkist abolitionists that erradicated work.
> The other error is the assumption that because by definition 
>  progressivist desire the  good they produce good when this is not the 
> case. It is not the same to desire good than to achieve good. Progressives 
> are most of the time missinformed and/or inoportune and frequently do 
> whathever is beneficial for them and name it as progress. Very bad people 
> (i.e. deletereous egoists) cover themselves as progressives  because 
> progresseives are the best sellers of good intentions, progressivism is the 
> best cover for the bad.

And very bad people cover themselves as conservatives because businessmen 
are respected and money buys power.

> But no doubt, if still you insist in to define progress as good and what 
> the progresives do, 

I don't. I define what Progressives do as seek a higher quality of civil 
policies. I define progress as that which increases a higher quality of 
human life.

then any of these bad people are not progressives, and any conservative 
> people that produces a kind of progress of your taste is automatically 
> progressive, so you are tautologically right and you have the best people. 

There are bad Progressives, and bad Conservatives. The difference is that 
the Conservatives knowingly promote fear and intolerance while the 
Progressives at least believe in a life-affirming agenda.

> The extreme case is what happens with comunists, they relabel real 
> historical comunism as fascism and they restart anew every morning without 
> any culpability. This ahistoricity and this negation to definitions, so 
> that you can escape judgement,  is typical of the left.  You ill say that 
> you are not comunist. If I say that the Democrat party in USA was 
> pro-slavery, you will  reject to define yourself as Democrat and so on.

If you look at the skylines of cities under Communism, Socialism, Monarchy, 
Theocracy, and Democracy, the all look about the same. I like Democracy, 
but there is no objective evidence that any one political system inherently 
produces more progress, once you factor out the bonanza of natural 
resources of the American continents.


> 2012/12/15 Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
>> On Saturday, December 15, 2012 1:37:03 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>>>  On 12/15/2012 1:19 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>>> On Saturday, December 15, 2012 10:00:54 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: 
>>>>  Hi Craig Weinberg 
>>>> By progressives I obviously meant those that act to change things. 
>>>> Which means overthrowing the way the "good, the beautiful and
>>>> the true" are thought to be and commonly accepted as. 
>>> Do you think that when Gandhi inspired the colonized Indian subjects of 
>>> the British Empire that he was overthrowing something beautiful? That he 
>>> was changing what was commonly accepted as good?
>>> When progressives went into the American South to fight lynchings and 
>>> segregation, was that some kind of a perverse new take on what was 
>>> 'commonly accepted as good'? How about slavery? Was that good and true and 
>>> beautiful? How about unrestrained abuse of laborers by industry? Also the 
>>> good old days?
>>>>  Thus one
>>>> subverts morality, philosophy and religion, and aesthetics. 
>>>> It's a form of social darwinism. The dynamics of social change.
>>> Just because there is an existing condition does not make it worthy of 
>>> support. You are justifying whatever form of tyranny and oppression 
>>> happened to have come before you and denouncing any attempt to restore 
>>> liberty. That is just as much Social Darwinism as anything else. It is to 
>>> say 'whoever tries to change anything is a ruthless bastard, but whoever 
>>> enforces the existing order or regressing to a previous order is a good and 
>>> moral person.'
>>>> As with Darwinism, some of these changes have been good. 
>>>> Einstein, Ghandi, Martin Luther King Jr. and Van Gogh certainly 
>>>> brought in good new things.
>>>> But some are not so good. Nietzsche attempted 
>>>> to overthrow morality completely, and the poets, novellists, 
>>>>  screenwriters and other artists, etc, have had mixed results,
>>>> especially to sexual morality and human decency. Now
>>>> young men think nothing of executing a kindergarten class. 
>>> Of course, not all attempts at change are good or end up being good. The 
>>> same goes for attempts to prevent change. There are counter-revolutionaries 
>>> who are just as bloody as revolutionaries.  The idea that 'young men think 
>>> nothing of executing a kindergarten class' being related to progressive 
>>> causes is ridiculous. If that were the case, then progressive Scandinavia, 
>>> France, Canada, etc would be awash in massacres. Progressives try to 
>>> eliminate guns, remember?
>>>> Twelve-tone music is listenable for a while, but it really has no
>>>> unity or beauty.  And popular music has discarded beautiful
>>>> melodies and lyrics in favor of whining voices or those singing rap.
>>> Again, if you are over 65, I sympathize. I'm 44, so I remember being a 
>>> kid and what it was like in the 70s when modern art, rock music, and other 
>>> confrontational aesthetics were still big news. I agree with you that 
>>> culture has become more and more degraded during my lifetime and I agree 
>>> that there is something to that beyond just my taste, but really it isn't 
>>> that important. The decay of Amercian culture is not the result of what 
>>> happened 50 years ago or even (much worse in my opinion) what happened in 
>>> the 80s when Reagan era conservatism brought back militarism and 
>>> overconsumption values. If you want to blame something, blame 
>>> overpopulation and the corruption of American institutions. The value of 
>>> human life is indirectly proportionate to how many extra people you have 
>>> and how imbalanced the society is. Those are the tensions which make money 
>>> more important than making civilization beautiful.
>>>> Now living together without marriage has become the norm for
>>>> young people, and we have indiscriminate sex and pornography.
>>>> These destroy the basic unit of human existence, the family.
>>>> Homosexual marriage also invalidates the meaning of marriage.
>>> Living together without marriage, casual sex, and pornography have made 
>>> life enjoyable and bearable for everyone, not just young people. They don't 
>>> destroy anything. The meaning of marriage is up to the consenting adults 
>>> who participate into it - not *you* or your tastes.
>>> If the kind of rigid, backward looking morality that you elevate really 
>>> was better, and really was God's magic recipe for perpetual happiness...why 
>>> didn't it stay that way? Do you think that Satan himself could have 
>>> convinced truly happy married couples to get divorced? That pornography 
>>> would have been a temptation for people who were well served by this Bronze 
>>> Age ideal? Progress triumphed over fundamentalism in the 60s because people 
>>> were educated enough and content enough for the first time to cast off the 
>>> Calvinist neuroses of the 19th century and grow up and out into a real 
>>> world full of real choices - not paint by numbers automatism.
>>> Craig
>>> Dear Craig,
>>>     All of these points are instances of taking a particular 
>>> evaluational frame, making it absolute, and issuing judgements from it.
>> I think that they are instances of real world examples. I don't issue any 
>> judgments from it - I just ask - 
>> 'Was slavery good before Progressive activism changed it'?  
>> 'Were the practices of industry toward its workers good or bad before 
>> Progressive activism changed it? 
>> Was colonialism and Apartheid in India, South Africa, the American South, 
>> etc good or bad before Progressive activism changed it?
>> I don't intend to prove to anyone that these things were bad or that they 
>> were improved - unlike with Conservative approaches - I leave that up to 
>> you. Maybe you say they were better off slaves and second class citizens, 
>> or that the wars and changes that followed weren't worth it? Or maybe you 
>> say these weren't movements of Progressive activism? Maybe you have a list 
>> of your own? That's cool, I'm open to hearing about any of that. I don't 
>> see that these examples are somehow disqualified though. That just makes me 
>> think that there is no counterargument because their truth is self evident, 
>> and therefore 'unfair' to the other side.
>> It is what is known, to some, as chronocentrism. It is simply wrongheaded.
>> I know you're not saying that I should make up examples from the future 
>> instead or talk from theory right? Examples from the past are wrongheaded? 
>> How so?
>>> Unless you put yourself into the context with you are evaluating and 
>>> then considering the facts as they stand with a set of universal ethical 
>>> principles, then those judgements and implications cannot be seen as 
>>> anything more than rationalizations to behave in one way or another.
>>>     We can rationalize any action to be good or bad. Rationalization, 
>>> pushed too far, allows anything. 
>> If we rule out examples from the past - and rule out present day 
>> comparisons like the success of Progressive policies in places like 
>> Scandinavia and Western Europe versus the failure of Regressive policies 
>> everywhere else, then all we have is propaganda made up by Think tanks and 
>> our own speculation.
>> Craig
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> Alberto.

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