On 05 Feb 2013, at 18:53, John Clark wrote:

On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:>> After a experiment has been completed the Many World'sInterpretation can give some people, including me, a intuitive feelof what just happened,> The analogous experiment in the UDA is pressing the button andseeing what City you now find yourself.^^^ ^^^^^^^^Yep it's true, the pee pee "proof" can not be explained without theuse of ambiguous pronouns to hide behind.

`I did it more than once. You miss the point: you know that whoever you`

`can feel to be in the immediate future---after pushing the button, you`

`(whoever you have become) will see only one city, making your`

`statement non sensical.`

> So I would say MW is a theory and not an interpretation. OK, but it's a theory that has not been proven;

`An applied theory is never proven. And MW is a theorem in QM. It`

`follows from the linearity of the evolution and of the tensor product.`

`Superpositions never disappear. QM is not proven (except from comp),`

`but the existence of the moon has never been proven. "To prove"`

`happens only in theories, and all theories are assumed. We have only`

`evidences or refutation.`

don't get me wrong I rather like the theory but that doesn't make ittrue. Godel thought that all arithmetical statements are either trueor they are not, but he also knew there are true arithmeticalstatements that can never be proven to be true. So maybe that's alsothe case for statements about physics and cosmology, maybe manyworlds is true but there is no way to ever experimentallydemonstrate it. On the other hand maybe tomorrow somebody will finda experimental way to prove it.> I know of no good explanation of why quantum computers should workunder single-universe interpretations.And at least so far quantum computers haven't done much of anythingexcept to find the factors of the number "15". We'll talk again whensomebody makes a real quantum computer, but I don't see what they ormany worlds has to do with the pee pee "proof".

`Comp implies MW, or many-dreams, and that physics emerges, in a`

`precise mathematical way, from that.`

`We have already an ortholattice structure at the sigma_1 bottom. You`

`criticize without studying.`

> You've agreed there is a single definite result (even in MW)after making some measurement.Yes. > You then say there is no single result in Bruno's experimentNot true, there is a single result in Bruno's experiment, John KClark sees Washington and Moscow.

`That can make sense, but but then you are me. And that does not make`

`the relative indeterminacy disappear, because John Clark, in Helsinki,`

`is wrong if he predicts that he *will* see both W and M. He will see`

`only W, or only M, as seeing is a first person view, and that first`

`person view will not been duplicated *from his first person view",`

`only from a third person view, but we do this since we are amoeba.`

`So if your prediction is "John will see W and M", both the first`

`person obtained will refute it.`

> because "you have been duplicated."It is beyond dispute that "you" has indeed been duplicated, so ifthat personal pronoun is used in a question with no additionalinformation on which "you"

`We have already agreed that you are both, because you are duplicated.`

`But without adding telepathy you cannot know in advance which one you`

`will feel to be.`

is being referred to then no answer can be given because thequestion is ambiguous.>> However Bruno in his pee pee proof claims to have discoveredsomething new about prediction but he is wrong about that.> Third person indeterminacy is not what he claims as some newprediction.Bruno claims to have found a new sort of indeterminacy unrelated toquantum indeterminacy or the sort of uncertainty Godel and Turingdealt with. Bruno's claims are untrue.

`So what is your algorithm of prediction? "W and M" has been refuted,`

`but you stick repeating that it is untrue, without given any algorithm`

`which is not refuted immediately by BOTH copies (showing that the`

`pronouns' ambiguity is just irrelevant).`

> you abandoned the proof at step 3 out of the 8. One does not need to eat the entire egg to know it is bad.

`You deny elementary common sense, and avoid the definitions given when`

`we single that out. No one here is able to make any sense of your`

`"refutation".`

Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.