On 06 Feb 2013, at 20:36, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

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2013/2/6 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> On 06 Feb 2013, at 10:22, Alberto G. Corona wrote:2013/2/6 Stephen P. King <stephe...@charter.net> On 2/5/2013 3:27 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:2013/2/5 Stephen P. King <stephe...@charter.net> Hi,ISTM that purpose is a 1p, so to ask the question in a 3psense is to make it meaningless.That´s it.But to insist into make the question in 3p may force theintroduction of an implicit 1p that contemplate the 3p, that is,a metamind , with a metatime etc. (To avoid pavlovian responses, idon´t mention the G. world). That is the meaning of my previousresponse.Hi Alberto, But the meta versions would be 1p's in their own right, no?Absolutely. Not only when talking about purpose. Most of theconcepts we use are 1p, so it is supposed that they aremeaningless when used in the description of a multiverse .Precisely because the multiverse is a design with the explicit goalof eliminate purpose as an axiom.But at the end, as I mentioned, this goal is not possible, becausewe can not avoid the infinite regression in the search for causes,and causality is 1p indeed.I agree that causality is 1p, but that makes causality emergent, andsecondary, not fundamental.We can stop the regression at the place we postulate the theory. Ihave explained why arithmetic is a good starting places. It explainsthe physical and non physical 1p and 3p, and it explains why wecannot take less than arithmetic (or Turing equivalent).Se inadvertently, when we talk about what exist and what do notexist in a multiverse, we turn into looking at an implicit 1pdesigner of the multiverseArithmetic is enough. It is 3p.At the end we can not think outside 1p. Scientific inquiry iscomunicable 1p.If it is communicable, it can be 1p, but it is genuinely 3p too. The1p part is not relevant, I think. Unless you assume that the wholearithmetic truth is conscious. That's an open problem, but we don'tneed to solve it to extract physics from the "number's dreams".Math is ambiguous on that.

`A priori, yes. But once we assume computationalism in cognitive`

`science, then we can accept that when numbers, relatively to other`

`numbers, behave in some ways (self-reference, etc.) they get mind, or`

`at least some mind can be associate to them (and then on the infinity`

`of them).`

We can postulate a 3p mathematical existence apart from any mindand any reality.

`That is clear for arithmetic, but already not so clear for more than`

`arithmetic. With the exception of the very rare ultrafinitsis,`

`mathematicians agree on arithmetic, and then disagree on anything`

`else, even if most mathematician will agree on large part of analysis,`

`but apparently, when they do, soon or later some logicians shows that`

`they were agreeing on a part which can be re-explained in arithmetical`

`terms.`

We can imagine that, but this is probably because we assume animplicit 1p mind or meta-mind that is contemplating the mathematicalthing. That is my guess and this is the most coherent notion ofexistence, related to a mind,, even for mathematical existence(apart form a null hypothesis in which everything exist). That isindeed the neoplatonic view. Its´nt it?

`It becomes close to neoplatonism, if you made the everything into the`

`meta-mind, perhaps. The "everything exist" is not a null hypothesis,`

`because the everything, once made precise, needs to define what we`

`mean by thing (set? categories? numbers? computations?).`

`Almost all attempts to define "everything" in math has led to`

`contradictory theories. To avoid the contradiction, some restriction`

`principles must be introduced, and then we can show that some`

`reasonable mathematical objects get lost. In fact the only exception`

`is "all computations", which, thanks to the non trivial Church thesis,`

`and the "closure of the computations for Cantor diagonalization",`

`leads to a quite conceptually solid notion of everything. This is the`

`strongest point in favor of comp: it has a non trivial and solid`

`notion of "everything" on its ontological side. Then it can explain`

`why we live the appearance "from inside" of "more than arithmetic".`

Bruno

Because the world of the mind -where we live- is and ever will beteleological.OK with this. In a sense, matter is teleological with comp. BrunoOn 2/5/2013 6:23 AM, Russell Standish wrote:Only in the same sense that evolution is teleological, ie notreally.Cheers On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 06:59:01PM +1100, Kim Jones wrote:So does this explain the PURPOSE of the universe or merely adominant FUNCTION? The blind exercise of function doesn't seem tome to include the global concept of purpose. The use of this wordis about my only gripe with it. I could be wrong.Cheers, K-- Onward! Stephen --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com.Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com.Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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