On 26 Mar 2013, at 00:25, Russell Standish wrote:

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 04:59:05PM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 24 Mar 2013, at 22:50, Russell Standish wrote:

This is true, however real randomness is aavailable, through the very first person ineterminancy phenomenon you mention below, and evolution
doesn't care, it will exploit whatever is at hand.

That does not entail evolution will generate wheels, or quantum
brains, or comp-brains (brains exploiting the first person
indeterminacy).

I'm not sure where the examples of wheels in evolution comes from, but
I believe there are several examples - tumbleweed being the most
prominent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotating_locomotion_in_living_systems
lists quite a few examples. I think you may be referring to wheel and
axle analogues, which is much more difficult, engineering-wise, for
which the only know example appears to be the flagellum.

As for exploitation of quantum superpositions, it now appears that
photosynthesis is an example. More examples may be found.


That kind of randomness can be used. I don't criticize this. Only
the use of "genuine randomness".
My point is just that free-will, creativity, consciousness does not
need such genuine indeterminacy. We don't need "ontological or
primitive indeterminacy", the one coming from inside (or from self-
reference and self-induction) is enough. We seem to agree, thus.
The FPI is used by "nature", but only with respect of the relative
measure on the consistent histories/computations.




But for a simple animal, trying to flee a predator - think
fish fleeing a shark, for instance - their brains may not be
sufficiently complex to generate the sort of complex behaviour
required to outwit the predatit. In which case, evolution will exploit
the genuine randomness available in the environment.

Well, the animals will survive on the branch where they make the
right decision, but I think that their brain will use simple
Turing-like complexity, not the FPI, unless they are quantum
computers, or the equivalent comp-computers, which I doubt. It is
conceivable;


As for exploitation of quantum random processes by the brain, that
theory makes two specific predictions: 1) a source of quantum
randomness must be found - the stochastic thermal behaviour of the
synapse fits the bill there, and 2) the system must be able to amplify
small perturbations into whole-system changes, ie we must necessarily
see the signature of chaotic processes in the brain. Note that
our most complex machine avoid chaos like the plague. Nyquist noise is
suppressed at each component or wire.

When this stuff was looked into (when Chaos theory was young and
trendy), that was exactly what was found - brains are wired for
chaos. See Walter Freeman, Sci Amer, vol 264, 78-85 (1991). I happen
to think this observation is significant.

OK. No problem. This would make the substitution level lower, and then should be explained by some back and forth between the FPI limits and the computations in the UD. I doubt this for empirical reason, but then comp invites to not take them too much seriously, unless they refute a theory.

Bruno






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Prof Russell Standish                  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics      hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales          http://www.hpcoders.com.au
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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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