On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 02:05:23PM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> On 21 Mar 2013, at 13:46, Telmo Menezes wrote:
> >I still find it hard to grasp how we could have a creative process
> >without some degree of random exploration.
> Why random. Pseudo random can be enough, or the natural randomness
> contained in the computable.
> No machine can distinguish randomness from the behavior of a more
> complex machine than herself, so I think that the kind of randomness
> and indetermination that you invoke in creativity is already there,
> in many form and shape in the computable.

This is true, however real randomness is aavailable, through the very
first person ineterminancy phenomenon you mention below, and evolution
doesn't care, it will exploit whatever is at hand.

For a human, it is conceivable that we have mental processes that are
too complex for our introspection to understand. These would be random
enough. But for a simple animal, trying to flee a predator - think
fish fleeing a shark, for instance - their brains may not be
sufficiently complex to generate the sort of complex behaviour
required to outwit the predatit. In which case, evolution will exploit
the genuine randomness available in the environment.

> The point I made is conceptual: what I say is that we don't need
> real pure randomness. We have it by the first person indeterminacy,
> but its role is more in the statistical stabilization of the
> computable than used as a  tool in creativity, fro which the
> computable is enough random per se.

Why is first person indeterminacy, not "real pure randomness"? I think
the genius in your approach is showing how genuinely random
phenomenona can appear in a fully deterministic system. It solves a
real philosophical problem, and I don't see why you would want to
shrink back from such a discovery.


Prof Russell Standish                  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics      hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales          http://www.hpcoders.com.au

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