On Monday, April 22, 2013 4:56:08 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 21 Apr 2013, at 19:45, Craig Weinberg wrote: 
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> > 
> > 
> > On Sunday, April 21, 2013 9:20:21 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: 
> > 
> > On 20 Apr 2013, at 23:23, Craig Weinberg wrote: 
> > 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> But what makes the laws of physics turn into physics? What makes   
> >> physics follow the laws? 
> > 
> > Study UDA. It answers this precisely. Observability is lawful. I   
> > gave the axioms, and shows them being theorem of arithmetic, once   
> > comp is at the metatlevel. 
> > 
> > It's not enough that observability is lawful, 
>
> Indeed. 
>
>
>
> > physical enactments must be identified as a pure consequence of law   
> > - which it can't be. 
>
> No it is too. 
>

Why do you assume so? What makes a map into a territory, and why would a 
map want to be one?
 

>
>
>
>
> > All laws of geometry can be simulated computationally without   
> > generating any physical lines, points, or shapes. 
>
>
> No need to generate them. 
>

Then how do you explain all geometric appearances in the universe?
 

>
>
>
>
> > When does UDA generate geometry, why should it ever do that, and how   
> > does it accomplish it? 
>
> It is explained in sane2004, and that is the object of many posts here. 
>

I don't think so. I think that anything anyone has said here can give a 
single insight into why abstract computations could, would, or should ever 
clothe themselves in sensory experience of any kind, including geometry.
 

>
>
>
>
>
> > 
> >> What would be the point of physics if this realm of Comp already   
> >> exists? 
> > 
> > It exists, like the prime number exists. What is the point of prime   
> > numbers? Not sure such question makes sense, but who knows. 
> > 
> > Prime numbers exist if you understand what you are looking for. 
>
> It exists even if you don't understand them. It is like the taxes. 
>

The taxes are only a belief system until that belief system inspires people 
to direct the actions of their bodies toward enforcing it. The primeness of 
numbers is an analysis of counting, it need not have been discovered for 
the universe to be complete. Taxes need not have been invented for the 
universe to be complete. All that is needed for the universe is sensory 
perception and motor participation.


>
>
> > So do words ending in the word 's'. There is a huge difference,   
> > however, in questioning the meaning of a pattern within a symbol   
> > system, and a completely arbitrary attachment of all of the physical   
> > phenomena in the universe to an abstract system. What Comp really   
> > does is push dualism halfway under the carpet, leaving only mind   
> > exposed and claiming body as an epiphenomena. 
>
> A body cannot be an epiphenomenon. That's does not make any sense. But   
> comp makes it into an epinoumenon, like ether, phlogiston, and other   
> superstition. 
>

Ok, but how does that change Comp's failure to explain the specific 
aesthetic nature of that superstition? Ether, phlogiston, and other 
superstitions are superstitions because they are subject to our imagination 
to give them any kind of definition . Shapes, colors, textures of 
superstitions are not agreed upon - with matter of course, universal 
agreement on the macrocosmic level is their defining quality.
 

>
>
>
>
> > The question remains though, if all bodies can be simulated, 
>
> With comp bodies cannot be emulated by Turing machine. They can be   
> simulated at some substitution level on which yopu might bet. careful,   
> it is a very important nuance to grasp if you want to understand why   
> machine believes in some correct local way to matter and physical laws. 
>

I don't think that its a nuance, it's obvious. I have designed video games 
on a computer before, so I have no problem understanding how an avatar 
detects collisions and behaves as if certain colored pixels are an immobile 
obstruction. But that's a cartoon. It is an automated picture which reminds 
us of our own experience of a body. The pixels on the screen are not 
detecting each other, nor are the numbers in the program, it is all 
incidental. The collisions are figurative and anesthetic, not literal and 
aesthetic. Switches are being opened and closed in memory which illuminates 
a monitor - that's all that is going on as far as anything is concerned 
except in the minds of programmers and audiences. It's a one dimensional 
representation, it has no wholeness.

It's confusing to say that Comp can't emulate bodies...so what makes bodies 
then and how can Comp claim to explain consciousness without explaining our 
consciousness of bodies? 


>
>
> > then why have bodies at all? 
>
> To talk and manifest our consciousness relatively to other persons. 
>

But why does that require a body? According to Comp, numbers are the only 
things that really ever are 'manifested', so what could it possibly mean 
for numbers to manifest as bodies or persons?
 

>
>
>
>
> > If anything can be simulated as a number relation, then what's with   
> > all of the shapes and textures? 
>
> This is what is explained by computer science. Machines cannot avoid   
> them. It follows from addition and multiplication, like the prime   
> numbers. 
>

I don't believe you. I do not think that the shape of a literal triangle is 
explained by number relations unless you already have a universe which has 
infinite aesthetic wonders on tap to add to any meaningless recursive 
iteration of computers science. 

Craig


> Bruno 
>
>
>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 
>
>
>
>

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