On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 1:48 AM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On 5/2/2013 4:12 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 12:56 AM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 5/2/2013 3:32 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm simply pointing out that you may be under the influence of
>>> christian morality even though you reject christianity. This is not
>>> surprising, we grew in a western civilisation that was greatly
>>> influenced by christianity. In this case I believe you are being
>>> puritanical because you believe that certain pursuits are not worthy
>>> because they do not contribute to the material common good. This moral
>>> value is not exclusive to christianity, of course, but given that your
>>> name is "John Clark" I would bet that that is where it originates
>>> from, in your case.
>>>
>>>
>>> It's not only not exclusive to Christianity it's not exclusive to
>>> religion.
>>> It has been part of every human (and probably hominid) tribe since the
>>> beginning of the species.
>>
>> Not at all, humans are not social insects. We have a strong drive for
>> art, introspection and self-expression. Asian cultures have placed a
>> high value on meditation for millennia.
>
>
>
> So did some Christian ones.  But long before Christianity and even the
> development of Asian cultures I'm pretty sure that many hunter/gatherers
> considered time spent in contemplation that did not contribute to the tribe
> to be frivolous and unworthy.

That is unlikely, because there are in fact still hunter/gatherer
tribes in the world, in the Amazon for example, and they seem to place
a high value in contemplative activities. For example, they drum
repetitive sounds for a very long time, chant mantras and consume
entheogens. They place a high value in this type of activities, which
are usually performed when it gets darker. It makes sense because
humans do not see well in the dark, so there's nothing productive to
do for hunter/gatheres during that time.

> To say it's a Christian influence is as silly
> as saying the Golden Rule is a Christian idea, even though it was around for
> millenia before Christianity.

I didn't say it was a christian invention, but it's quite clear that
the current western system of morality is highly influenced by the
Victorian-era interpretation of christianity. This not even a crazy
idea of mine, it's a well-accepted concept in modern social sciences.

>
>> Many tribes developed their
>> religions and proto-religions around entheogens. People smoke and
>> watch porn. Western puritanism either rejects or highly regulates all
>> of these things.
>
>
> Western puritanism also rejects murder.

Not at all. It just regulates when murder is acceptable and when it's
not. Other cultures (for example, buddhists) reject murder much more
strongly.

> That doesn't mean that people
> against murder have fallen under the influence of Western puritanism.

Unlike biology (for which we only have one instance to look at), in
sociology we are lucky enough to have many instances of separate
cultures (separated both in time and in space). This allows us to
contrast and compare, so it is easier to develop theories like the one
I expressed. They are only theories, of course, like in any other
science.

> Brent
>
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