On 08 Oct 2013, at 17:59, Craig Weinberg wrote:

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On Tuesday, October 8, 2013 3:40:53 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Oct 2013, at 17:20, Craig Weinberg wrote:On Monday, October 7, 2013 3:56:55 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Oct 2013, at 22:00, Craig Weinberg wrote:Qualia is experience which contains the felt relation to all otherexperiences; specific experiences which directly relate, andextended experiential contexts which extent to eternity (totalityof manifested events so far relative to the participant plus semi-potential events which relate to higher octaves of theirparticipation...the bigger picture with the larger now.)Then qualia are infinite. This contradict some of your previousstatement.It's not qualia that is finite or infinite, it is finity-infinityitself that is an intellectual quale.OK. But this does not mean it is not also objective. The set ofdividers of 24 is finite. The set of multiple of 24 is infinite. Forexample.It might not be objective, just common and consistent because itultimately reflects itself, and because it reflects reflection. Itmay be the essence of objectivity, but from the absoluteperspective, objectivity is the imposter - the power of sense toapproximate itself without genuine embodiment.Is the statement that the set of dividers is finite objectivelytrue, or is it contingent upon ruling out rational numbers? Can't wejust designate a variable, k = {the imaginary set of infinitedividers of 24}?

`"Absolute" can be used once we agree on the definition. The fact that`

`some alien write 1+1=4 for our 1+1=2, just because they define 4 by`

`s(s(0)), would not made 1+1=2 less absolute.`

`The fact that we are interested in integers dividing integers might be`

`contingent, but that does not make contingent the fact that the set of`

`dividers of 24 is a finite set of integers.`

Quanta is derived from qualia, so quantitative characteristics haveambiguous application outside of quanta.Yes, quanta comes from the Löbian qualia, in a 100% verifiable way.Indeed. But that is again a consequence of computationalism.Why isn't computationalism the consequence of quanta though?

Human computationalism does.

`But I want the simplest conceptual theory, and integers are easier to`

`define than human integers.`

What can be computed other than quantities?

`Quantities are easily computed by stopping machines, but most machines`

`does not stop, and when they introspect, the theory explains why they`

`get troubled by consciousness, qualia, etc. Those qualia are not`

`really computed, they are part of non computable truth, but which`

`still bear on machines or machine's perspective.`

Qualia is what we are made of. As human beings at this stage ofhuman civilization, our direct qualia is primarily cognitive-logical-verbal. We identify with our ability to describe withwords - to qualify other qualia as verbal qualia. We name ourperceptions and name our naming power 'mind', but that is notconsciousness. Logic and intellect can only name public-facingreductions of certain qualia (visible and tangible qualia - thestuff of public bodies). The name for those public-facingreductions is quanta, or numbers, and the totality of the playingfield which can be used for the quanta game is called arithmetictruth.Arithmetical truth is full of non nameable things. Qualia refer tonon verbally describable first person truth.Can arithmetical truth really name anything?I am not sure Arithmetical Truth can be seen as a person, oranything capable of naming things. You are stretching the words toomuch. I guess that if you make your statement more precise, it willlead to an open problem in comp.If Arithmetic truth is full of non nameable things, what nameablethings does it also contain,

`The numbers, the recursive properties, the recursively enumarable`

`properties, the Sigma_i truth, well a lot of things.`

`You have the recursive (the simplest in our comp setting), then the`

`recursively enumerable (the universal machines, notably), then a whole`

`hierarchy of non computable, but still nameable set of numbers, or`

`machine's properties, then you got the non nameable properties, like`

`true (for number relations) but very plausibly, things like`

`consciousness, persons, etc.`

`Some of those non nameable things can still be studied by machines,`

`through assumptions, and approximations.`

Above that you have the truth that you cannot even approximated, etc. Arithmetical truth is big, *very* big.

and what or who is naming them?

`The machines. (in the comp setting, despite the machines theology does`

`refer to higher non-machine entities capable of naming things. That's`

`the case for the first order logical G* (which I note usually qG*,`

`this one needs more than arithmetical truth, but it is normal as it`

`describes an intensional (modal) views by a sort of God (Truth) about`

`the machine. here the miracle is that its zero order logical`

`(propositional) part is decidable.`

Otherwise wouldn't it be tautological to say that it is full of nonnameable things, as it would be to say that water is full of non drythings.

? (here you stretch an analogy to far, I think).

It seems to me that we can use arithmetic truth to locate a numberwithin the infinity of computable realtions, but any 'naming' isonly our own attempt to attach a proprietary first person sense tothat which is irreducibly generic and nameless. The thing aboutqualia is not that it is non-nameable, it is the specific aestheticpresence that is manifested. Names are just qualia of mentalassociation - a rose by any other name, etc.I think this could be made more precise by taking "our" in theLöbian sense.If quanta is Löbian qualia, why would it need any non-quantitativenames?

? (to fuzzy question, sorry, try to make this more clear perhaps). Bruno

Craig Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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