On 09 Oct 2013, at 15:43, Craig Weinberg wrote:

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On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 3:18:52 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Oct 2013, at 20:12, Craig Weinberg wrote:On Tuesday, October 8, 2013 12:34:57 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Oct 2013, at 17:59, Craig Weinberg wrote:Why isn't computationalism the consequence of quanta though?Human computationalism does.But I want the simplest conceptual theory, and integers are easierto define than human integers.I'm not sure how that relates to computationalism being somethingother than quanta. Humans are easier to define to themselves thanintegers. A baby can be themselves for years before counting to 10.Phenomenologically? Yes.Fundamentally? That does not follow. It took a long time beforediscovering the Higgs-Englert-Brout Boson.It doesn't have to follow, but it can be a clue. The Higgs is aparticular type of elementary phenomenon which is not accessible tous directly. That would not be the case with Comp if we were in factusing only computation. If our world was composed on every level bycomputation alone,

`Hmm.... It is not obvious, and not well known, but if comp is true,`

`then "our world" is not "made of" computations.`

`Our world is "only" an appearance in a multi-user arithmetical video`

`game or dream.`

it wouldn't make much sense for people to have to learn to countintegers only after years of aesthetic saturation.What can be computed other than quantities?Quantities are easily computed by stopping machines, but mostmachines does not stop, and when they introspect, the theoryexplains why they get troubled by consciousness, qualia, etc. Thosequalia are not really computed, they are part of non computabletruth, but which still bear on machines or machine's perspective.Then you still have an explanatory gap.But that is a good point for comp, as it explains why there is agap, and it imposes on it a precise mathematical structure.But there's nothing on the other side of the gap from the comp view.You're still just finding a gap in comp that comp says is supposedto be there and then presuming that the entire universe other thancomp must fit in there. If there is nothing within comp tospecifically indicate color or flavor or kinesthetic sensations, oreven the lines and shapes of geometry, then I don't see how comp canclaim to be a theory that relates to consciousness.

`There is something in the comp theory which specifically indicate`

`qualia.`

The gaps in the intensional nuances could very well do that.

How can anything which is non-computable bear on the computation ofan ideal machine?That is the whole subject of en entire field: recursion theory, ortheoretical computer science.Ok, so what is an example of something that specifically bridges akind of computation with something personal that comp claims toproduce?

`That is technical, and you need to study AUDA. I would say that *all*`

`statements in X1* minus X1 produces that. No doubt many open problems`

`have to be solved to progress here.`

`But even if that fails, you have not produced an argument that it is`

`not possible.`

What connects the qualia to the quanta, and why isn't the qualiajust quantitative summaries of quanta?Qualia are not connected to quanta.Then what is even the point of Comp? To me quanta = all that relatesto quantity and certain measurement. If they are not connected toquanta then a machine that is made of quanta can't possibly producequalia that has no connection to it. That's no better than Descartes.

`I realize that you have not yet really study comp. Physical Machine`

`are not made of quanta. Quanta appears only as first person plural`

`sharable qualia. They are observable pattern common to people`

`belonging to highly splitting or differentiating computations, most`

`plausibly the "linear computations" (like in QM).`

Quanta are appearances in the qualia theory, and they are notquantitative, they are lived at the first person plural views.Quanta aren't quantitative?

`They might be. The fact that they come from qualia does not prevent`

`that they have quantitative aspect.`

If Arithmetic truth is full of non nameable things, what nameablethings does it also contain,The numbers, the recursive properties, the recursively enumarableproperties, the Sigma_i truth, well a lot of things.You have the recursive (the simplest in our comp setting), then therecursively enumerable (the universal machines, notably), then awhole hierarchy of non computable, but still nameable set ofnumbers, or machine's properties,You say they are nameable, but I don't believe you. It is not as ifa number would ever need to go by some other name. Why not refer toit by its precise coordinate within Arithmetic Truth?Because it is independent of the choice of the computational base,like volume in geometry. If you can name something with fortran,then you can name it with numbers, combinators, etc. Nameability is"machine independent", like the modal logics G, G*, Z, etc;What you are calling names should be made of binary numbers though.I'm asking why binary numbers should ever need any non-binary, non-digtial, non-quantitative names.

`Your methodology cannot work. Even if I was not able to explain how`

`non-quantitive names appear, it is up to you, when saying that comp is`

`wrong, have to give he impossibility argument.`

`Then, in this case, I keep telling you why: the math shows why and how`

`those non quantitative relations develop, notably through an`

`intersection or conjunction between truth and self-reference.`

then you got the non nameable properties, like true (for numberrelations) but very plausibly, things like consciousness, persons,etc.Some of those non nameable things can still be studied by machines,through assumptions, and approximations.Above that you have the truth that you cannot even approximated, etc. Arithmetical truth is big, *very* big. Big, sure, but that's exactly why it needs no names at all.It is worst than that. Many things cannot have a name. what can they have?

`Properties, relations, well, ... the nameable things are exceptional,`

`in fact. in arithmetic. Nameable sets of numbers are enumerable, non`

`nameable sets are non enumerable. Life and consciousness develops at`

`the frontier between the nameable, and the non nameable. Truth itself`

`conditions everything, yet is not nameable.`

Each feature and meta-feature of Arithmetic truth can only be foundat its own address. What point would there be in adding a fictionallabel on something that is pervasively and factually true?In science it is not a matter of decision, but of verifiable facts.That's what I am saying, what is the point of adding a fictionalname to a fact that is verifiable within Arithmetic truth?

?

and what or who is naming them?The machines. (in the comp setting, despite the machines theologydoes refer to higher non-machine entities capable of naming things.That's the case for the first order logical G* (which I noteusually qG*, this one needs more than arithmetical truth, but it isnormal as it describes an intensional (modal) views by a sort ofGod (Truth) about the machine. here the miracle is that its zeroorder logical (propositional) part is decidable.I don't think that names and machines are compatible in any way.Programmers of machines might use names, but once compiled, allhigh level terms are crushed into the digital sand that the machinecan digest. No trace of proprietary intent remains.Not at all. The whole point is that such proprietary are invariantfor the high or low level implementations.Then why would we have to compile high level programs into low levelmachine code?

`Because it is simpler for a human to talk in higher level terms, and`

`it is easier for the engineer to build a universal machine from low`

`level basic components.`

`Our brains have a low level (neuronal for example), and high level (as`

`it is apparent from its structure, not mentioning our introspection`

`ability).`

`The modal logics I am using does capture high level properties of low`

`level defined by addition+multiplication.`

If quanta is Löbian qualia, why would it need any non-quantitativenames?? (to fuzzy question, sorry, try to make this more clear perhaps).You said earlier that quanta is Löbian qualia, and then you aresaying above that naming is one of the things that Löbians(persons? machines?) do, so I am asking why don't they just usequanta instead of non-quantitative qualia?Because, by the logical gaps Z/Z*, X/X* etc. (inherited from G/G*)it is shown that Löbian numbers/machines/person are confronted withthem. They can names some things, and they cannot name other things.It is a theorem in their self-reference logics. It is "basic"machine's theology or psychology.It sounds like you're just saying "because that's how they work."

`I say something like that, but I explain with computer science and`

`logic. Before Gödel we could think that machines are basically a`

`simple notion, amenable to complete theories. After Gödel, we realize`

`that above a threshold of complexity (the Turing universality`

`threshold) we know about nothing. And with comp, we can understand`

`why, as universal machines appears to be unknown to themselves,`

`uncontrollable by themselves, full of not predictible quantitative and`

`qualitative surprises.`

`This does not prove that comp is true, but it defeats argument based`

`on easy comparison between us and possible machines.`

Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.