On 23 Oct 2013, at 19:57, John Clark wrote:
On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
> Note, John, that you just go from P(W) = P(M) = 0, to the post you
sent before (and that I commented), to P(W) = P(M) = 1.
That's because it depends entirely about what the hell P(W) and
P(M) mean! Just putting it into a semi mathematical format will not
by itself make the idea clearer, or smarter.
> You do seem confused.
At least John Clark can express John Clark's ideas about identity
without using pronouns, it just takes a little longer and sounds a
little awkward, Bruno Marchal can not because without the
indeterminacy that pronouns can produce in the English Language the
illogic inherent in Bruno Marchal's ideas would have nowhere to
hide. The fact that Bruno Marchal refuses to stop using pronouns
meas that Bruno Marchal does not know how to count people in a
thought experiment involving duplicating chambers, and yet Bruno
Marchal continues to say things like "In the third person point of
view on the first person points of view. But the question bears on
the first person point of view exclusively" and "confusion between
the third person view on the first person views, and the first
person points of view themselves".
> To answer the question asked, you have to put yourself in the
shoes of each copy,
If there were already a way to directly feel the sense of self that
another person has your "proof" would be unnecessary.
The indeterminacy comes from that fact. The W-Clark and the M-Clark
cannot feel what the other feel, and each can understand that H-Clark
was wrong with P(M) = 1 P(W) = 1. They both feel alive, and so that
the H-Clark was wrong with P(M) = P(W) = 0.
They both know better, and eventually most <sequence-of-X and M>-Clark
get the notion of first person indeterminacy.
> or at least read their personal diaries
That will not increase precision unless you give a name (and NOT a
pronoun!) to the guy who wrote the diary, if its "Mr. The Guy Who Is
Experiencing Helsinki On October 21 2013" then the probability "he"
will experience Washington is zero.
Ridiculous, because in that case would implies you die in a
duplication or teletransportation experiences.
We have already agree that the W-guy and the M-guy are the same H-guy,
but living a later time.
If the guy's name is "Mr. The Guy Who Will Experience Washington On
October 22 2013" then the probability "he" will experience
Washington is 1. And I don't want to hear any more of this first
person third person stuff until you make it clear what a person is
and how many there are in a world with people duplicating machines
in it.
You ask irrelevant question. With the definition of first and third
person that I provide, it is just a childplay to see that no person at
all can predict the outcome *they* (any of them) will feel personally
(or just will describe in *their* diary. The reasoning is pure third
person reasoning, and concerned all persons involved.
Let me ask you questions, one at a time.
Do you think that you die in a self-duplication experience? (with the
same protocol than in step 3, that is: annihilation of the original (H-
GUY), and reconstitution done in W and M).
Bruno
And I agree with Quentin Anciaux that It is human to make mistakes
but It is of the devil to continue making them, but I don't agree
with the pompous way he said it.
John k Clark
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