# Re: For John Clark

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On 22 Oct 2013, at 20:56, Quentin Anciaux wrote to John Clark```
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(I comment both)

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2013/10/22 John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com>

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On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 6:03 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
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On 10/21/2013 9:16 AM, John Clark wrote:
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>> Let me put it in this way: accepting that P(W) = P(M) =1/2, with W and M describing the first person experiences of the respective copies, do you accept that P(M) = P(W) = 1/2,
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> No I don't accept that, not if P(W) is the probability that the Washington Man will see Washington; the probability of that would be 1 not 1/2. And if P(W) means the probability the Helsinki Man will see Washington that would be 0 not 1/2 because the Helsinki Man would have to be turned into something that is not the Helsinki Man before the Helsinki Man can see a different city.
```> Why?  If he flew to Washington he would still be the Helsinki man.

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OK, then if he flew to Moscow he would be the Helsinki man too, and if he used a Star Trek style transporter instead of a airplane he would still be the Helsinki Man, and if the transporter sent him to both cities at the same time he would still be "The Helsinki Man". So you tell me, using logic and your definition how many cities did "The Helsinki Man" see?
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> He's the Helsinki man because of the continuity of his memories, just as you are still John Clark even though you've changed locations since yesterday.
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Fine. If that's what you mean by "The Helsinki Man" then in Bruno's thought experiment with the duplication chamber and using the exact same reasoning the probability The Helsinki Man will see Washington is 100%
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In the third person point of view on the first person points of view. But the question bears on the first person point of view exclusively. To answer the question asked, you have to put yourself in the shoes of each copy, or at least read their personal diaries (by definition of "first person points of view" used here).
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```and the probability The Helsinki Man will see Moscow is 100%.
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Note, John, that you just go from P(W) = P(M) = 0, to the post you sent before (and that I commented), to P(W) = P(M) = 1.
```You do seem confused.

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And yes yes I know, each copy will see only one city, but if the definition of "The Helsinki Man" is the one you give above, "the continuity of his memories", then it is irrelevant how many cities each individual copy sees.
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Except that the probability bears on the memories contained in all the resulting personal diaries, and they will differ on the number of cities. You can even define the first person indeterminacies by the frequency of W and M in the personal reports, and elementary reasoning shows that this lead to the binomial, and thus normal for large number of duplications, distribution, confirming the P = 1/2, based on the numerical identity of the codes sent to Washington and Moscow.
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Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum.
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John Clark seems stuck in his confusion between the third person view on the first person views, and the first person points of view themselves.
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This indicates that he does not pursue the "step 3" thought experiment in its entirety. After the duplication, considers himself being in both place at once, but forget to take into account the fact that both copies will feel to be in only one place, and that the question was about that place.
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Everett also reintroduces total third person determinacy by reducing the experimental indeterminacy by multiplication/differentiation of the observers, eliminating notably the notion of event without cause, which is a plug in for "God/Universe-of-the-gap notions".
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To be wrong is not a problem indeed. It is the fuel of learning.

To be wrong again and again and again ... is more problematical.

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To be wrong, knowing being wrong, but denying it for private (unknown, conscious/unconscious?) reason, is much more problematical.
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Science and even Conscience is in the attempt of not doing the same error twice.
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I have no idea what is Clark's problem. He just confused opportunistically 1p and 3p to make his point. (mixed with depreciating rethoric).
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He has never tried to read AUDA, also, but of course this needs some mathematical logics. But, still, he talks like if that was not existing.
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Yet, I have a sort of respect for John Clark, as he seems, at least, to try to give a reason why *not* reading more than the two first steps of UDA. That is quite unlike the usual opponents, who discard any meeting and dialog, private or public, and does not even come at the public defense of the thesis, mocking all academical practices. John Clark does *not* act under my back (Well not only, at least). I thank John for that, as it illustrates to the others the kind of opponents the reasoning can meet.
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Quentin, you are right that by not seeing the phenomenological similarity between the comp self-multiplication and the QM self- superposition, John Clark shows that he didn't realize the conceptual gain of Everett on Copenhagen.
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That is coherent with his belief in "event without cause". That's like inventing a notion about which no one can ask "why", by definition, like in fairy tale.
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That might perhaps be related with his confessed atheism, which like any authoritative religion keep building "don't ask" barriers when reasoning leads to questioning the dogma (in this case the primitive "aristotelian" matter and/or physicalism).
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Well, I can't help to try to understand why someone can act so irrationally, or unscientifically. Maybe John Clark is not aware that the primitive existence of a physical reality is not a fact of science, but a metaphysical assumption, and that in science we can doubt all metaphysical assumptions, especially when tackling difficult subjects like the (computationalist) mind-body relation.
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Science is agnostic. It is only a lantern on some possible unknown.

Bruno

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John K Clark

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